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Dennett on free will – a summary of ‘Elbow Room’

Posted by: boltonian | December 28, 2007 | 15 Comments |

Dennett approaches the subject from a deterministic stance, and his thesis is to convince the reader that determinism provides ‘The Varieties of Free Will Worth Having’, (which is the book’s subtitle). In fact, he attempts to convince us that under determinism one can have an almost perfect simulation of absolute free will, and to demonstrate that the last step between that simulation and the absolute thing is, in fact, meaningless. He has little time for absolutist philosophers or philosophies.

His is a purely materialistic determinism. He dismisses dualism in one phrase, as ‘a desperate vision which richly deserves its current disfavour’. He makes no mention at all of non-dualistic idealism in the Eastern tradition, that of spirit subtending matter. I rather feel his thoughts on that would scorch the paper. However he quotes lengthily Paul Jennings’ ‘Resistentialism’ in a footnote, and charmingly refers to Kris Kristofferson’s ‘Freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose’, so he must be a Good Thing.

He is something of a compatibilist, with the limitation that the free will he proposes as compatible with determinism is not absolute.

In style he likens his approach to that of the sculptor he once thought to be : circling his material, chipping here and there, roughing out the overall shape from all sides, rather than going in a straight line from A to B. This can make him a bit repetitive, and a second reading is sometimes necessary to see where he was going in any particular passage. For Dennett the role of philosophy is to enlarge our vision of the possible, and to break bad habits of thought. A last general comment : throughout this book Dennett dances round the question of what determinism means in a world having quantum indeterminacy, without realy facing it, IMO. He does however, make use of the concept of determined chaotic pseudo-randomness to get him out of tight determined corners once or twice. ‘With one bound, Dan was free !’.

He starts with an entertaining section on all the bugbears and bogeymen that have been created by philosophical thought experiments or metaphors, all intending to illustrate our plight in having the illusion of free will if the world is deterministic ‘and so we don’t in fact have any free will at all’, but by their construction and orientation all tending to frighten us into wanting absolute free will or nothing. These include such terrors as :

  • The Invisible Jailor (the illusion of free will, when in fact we don’t have any, likened to being in a prison which prevents our freedom, only we can’t see the bars. Shudder and beat your heads against the wall)
  • The Nefarious Neurosurgeon (we think we have free will, but imagine an entity which seizes control of your physical, and perhaps mental, activities without you knowing it, you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference.. Wouldn’t that be awful ?)
  • The Cosmic Child whose Toy We Are (if we don’t have free will we’re the playthings of the Universe. How diminished and undignified, how cruel a fate would that be..)
  • ‘Sphexishness’ : Sphex ichneumoneus is a wasp which seems to behave very intelligently in some respects, until you alter its surroundings, when all its thoughtfulness is shown up as mere non-adapting mechanical behaviour. How would we feel if at some superior level it were as laughably evident that all our efforts are mere automatisms ?
  • The Dread Secret : OK, so we don’t have free will. Wouldn’t it be terrible if people found out ? Moral responsibility goes down the drain and life reverts to being Hobbesian, nasty, British, and short. (PS, the typo is dredged up from my memory of a perhaps apocryphal journalistic howler).

All these bugbears are highly emotional, and a constant concern of the book is to dedramatise.

The real question for Dennett is :

Free will is usually defined in terms of ‘might have done otherwise’. Why should anyone care about the ‘might have’ ?

His next section looks at reason and meaning.

In the beginning, there were only ’causes’. The first ‘reasons’ were created with the first self replicationg proto-organisms, which came to respond to stimuli to preserve their entropy-decreasing replicative behaviour. These were genetically controlled reasons. Now read on.

Reason, it is said, is not a physical property of the world. Therefore a rational will must be exempt from physical causality (the major currents of thinking on free will suppose it to be rational). A decision moved by reason cannot be a decision moved by causes.

A related argument concerns meaning. Meaning is not a physical property of the world. Therefore a physical mind can only be a syntactic engine (concerned with the structure of information) and not a semantic engine (concerned with meaning).

Dennett proposes to bridge the gap between the syntactic engine and the semantic engine by introducing the first of his proposed ‘very good approximations’ The brain only approximates the behaviour of a semantic engine, in fact, we are super-sphexish. He then proceeds to soften the blow and sugar the pill. Most of the descriptions of our state under determinism suffer from drastic oversimplification. They ignore our sophisticated sensory array and our ability to notice things. This is what distinguishes our ’caused’ behaviour from the simpler kind. Having a ‘reason’ presented to your understanding is, however, no different in kind from any other cause, just different in level.

He gives a lengthy review of his ideas on consciousness, including a convincing ‘just so story’ of how consciousness can arise deterministically. For him consciousness is ‘at the reachable top of the pyramid of natural, physical, processes’. No ‘Chalmers Hard Problem’ for Dennett.

He subscribes to a form of Hobbes ’social contract’ theory of morality.

Finally, self-reflective consciousness plus a Hobbesian, deterministic morality permit the acquiring of non-genetically determined reasons (including e.g. altruism, or the desire to do something crazy just because you can, or any other test case you can come up with to demonstrate your absolute existential freedom).

His third section is on control and self-control. If we don’t have free will, we’re not in control. We’re not free agents or unmoved movers. That could mean (shock horror) that we are, in fact controlled (he notes the semantic slide from ‘determined’ to ‘controlled’).

He discusses different types of control, from the rigid control of a thermostat over a heater, through the limited autonomy of a robot space probe, where the external controlling agent just sets the overall goals and parameters, but is precluded by communication lags from having total hands-on control, to the example of the pilot of an airplane and the control he exercises. The pilot is warned of a thunderstorm ahead. He decides to change course to avoid it. Why ? Because in doing so he recognises the limitations of those aspects of the plane’s behaviour he actually can control, and the limitations of his skill to control them. The two elements, forewarning of a random event coming up, and self-knowledge, combine to lead him to conclude that to maintain his margin for manouevre, his ‘elbow room’, he’d do better to steer round. None of that is incompatible with the behaviour of a multi-level , self reflecting, deliberation engine. And who could ask for more ? As for the emotional content, the pilot’s emotions at hearing of the storm are a real and important part of the causal chain.

Dennett also rather cheekily reviews the gradation between (a) brute force control of one’s actions by an external agent, through (b) influence by sweet reason causing a change in one’s actions, to (c) influence by pure provision of correct forecasting data affecting one’s actions. Hey, it’s all an external agent modifying one’s behaviour.

He concludes that under determinism we are not controlled by the past, as there is no feedback loop to the past reporting on our behaviour. Determination is not control.

My first reaction was indignation : this is just sleight of hand, begging the question of in what way is it better to be determined than to be controlled ? However, more thought failed to come up with an answer to the question : who could ask for more ?

Dennett’s fourth section is on the Self, and its relationship to moral responsibility. For me the latter element, on moral responsibility, is the least convincing part of the book..

First he notes the extreme position that the self is absolute agent, and unmoved mover. Its actions are not caused by anything external. He counters with the suggestion that this is an illusion, caused by :

  • the amplifying effect of minute neural triggers causing massive action effects
  • the inscrutability of neural causal paths
  • preoccupations with responsibility, moral, artistic, and intellectual.

He casts doubt on the reality of willed choice, citing the difficulty of pinning down the ‘moment of decision’ by introspection, and instances when we will one thing and do another.

Dennett notes that the self develops, it is not inborn. It develops through social interactions, from genetic dispositions. There is no ‘tabula rasa’, which for us is obvious, but which for the absolutist philosophers was unthinkable. The absolutist position is roughly « unless one is absolutely responsible for oneself, one is not responsible at all ». On the other extreme, hard determinists negate responsibility.

Dennett claims a middle ground. He claims a responsible self can develop for the individual, deterministically, from non-responsible beginnings « like mammals can evolve from non-mammals ». He notes that it is silly to claim that one is not responsible for something unless one is completely responsible for it, as no-one is ever completely responsible for anything.

Reverting to self-creation, he believes it to be largely heuristic. The essence of heuristic processing is to involve ‘leaps in the dark’, and arbitrary cut-off of deliberation, in situations where rational processing of all the data would be impractical. Such an approach is required for a sophisticated self-controlling agent faced with meta-level questions to which there are no obvious answers. Heuristic processing is time efficient but imperfect.

The shortcuts our minds take to arrive at solutions faced with time pressure will be a central theme for the rest of the book.

Finally, the complex and multi-layered process by which we arrive at self-formation, while being caused and determined, is just an awful lot grander than your simple formation process, such as crystal formation. Isn’t it ?

Dennett here goes through a lengthy, and IMO odd and flawed, development on the concept of luck as it relates to moral responsibility. He points out the difference between the concept of luck as in : I just flipped a coin 30 times and it came down heads all 30 (luck-a), and as in : I’m lucky to be here typing on this computer, ‘cos it means that none of my forebears died before the relevant reproductive act, and the transmitted intelligence level cumulated in my ability to handle Windows XP(tm) (luck-b). Coin tosses don’t have a memory, genes do. He refers to the argument that it’s ‘just luck’ if Yer Honour the Judge had the predispositions to be on one side of the bench and Crestfallen Criminal had the predisposition to be on the other side, which, if it were true, would be an argument against moral responsibility. Having very succinctly outlined it, he doesn’t refute it, deferring that to later chapters, just calling it ‘a petulant little argument’. He continues by claiming that we are all genetically endowed with such a high skill level in the cognitive areas enabling the deliberative processes relating to moral responsibility, compared to say a cat, that we all reach the same plateau of awareness of moral responsibility sooner or later. (purely false, IMO, and the only reference he quotes is another philosopher, not an evolutionary or genetic psychologist). Finally he concludes that the ‘just luck’ evens out, so we’re left with skill, and so we can be held responsible for our acts, citing the example of the NBA player who is held responsible for missing an easy shot, whereas for an amateur we’d have said that make it or miss it, it was just luck. My reaction : having created the distinction between luck-a and luck-b (my terms), he’s then completely failed to use them consistently, and in fact our ‘moral responsibility’ depends on luck-b, which only evens out after we’re all dead. Case for moral responsibility under determinism not proven, m’lud.

Chapter 5 is on action under the idea of freedom, and the idea of ‘opportunity’.

Dennett makes what for him is a vital distinction between determinism and fatalism. Fatalism supposes you go through foreseeably predetermined hoops. Determinism, given the chaotic pseudo-randomness around us, gives us hoops that are not foreseeable. See bottom of the discussion of Chap.5 for an example. Dennett has a beautiful phrase for the believer in absolute free will, speaking of ‘the now, zipping up the spreading future into the thin line of the past’. Well, no, he says. From the god’s eye view, the timeline is singular. The singular timeline the hypothetical god would see is exactly that which we determine by our actions in the present. There is no ‘meta-time’ (my words) in which to say with Freddie Mercury ‘it’s all (already) decided for us’.

Coming back to the comparison between a conscious human being and a designed deliberation engine, he points out that the deliberation engine would have some pseudo-random process for cutting short to deliberation, to be able to act in useful time. In starting its deliberations, it would have whole classes of possible outcomes not foreseeable to it. This is what gives us the illusion that things are ‘up to us’.

He notes, however, that as self reflecting deliberators, we can perceive our heuristics, and if required modify the cut off points, giving another dimension to the illusion.

He considers : Is it rational to maintain the illusion that the future contains real ‘opportunities’ ? It depends what you mean by opportunity.

Here Dennett goes off into the continuation of his unsatisfactory development on chance, introducing the notions of real randomness (quantum indeterminacy) and determined pseudo-randomness (chaotic processes) as determinants of the outcome of a heuristic process. Does the one mean it ‘had a chance’ and the other, being deterministic, mean it never did ? He posits that ‘opportunity’ under determinism is comparable to a lottery, for which the winning stub had been drawn and kept in a sealed envelope before the tickets were sold, which most people think is just fine. He seems to slide from the idea that it is determined that someone will win such a lottery, to the idea that it is determined that a particular individual will win it. Then, Dennett indulges in some heavy moralising about the socio-political necessity for believing in opportunity, and the importance of keeping one’s options open. Great language for talking to one’s teenage children, but moralising is something of an admission of defeat for a philosopher.

Finally, he tackles ‘avoidance’, as the opposite of ‘opportunity’, noting that in the god’s eye view nothing is avoidable. The ideas of ‘making a difference’, or ‘changing the course of history’ are illusions coming from false expectations. He uses the question ‘Why do you put a lock on your door, if whether or not someone will break in is already determined ?’ as an illustration of the absurdity of using fatalistic arguments instead of deterministic ones. ‘Unavoidable’, or ‘inevitable’, correctly understood, mean ‘outside the influence of our deliberations’.

Chapter 6 finally addresses the central question of ‘could have done otherwise’, or in technical language, the ‘counterfactuals’. Moral responsibility depends on ‘could I have done otherwise ?’, which is also the touchstone of free will.

Dennett distinguishes between ‘could have done otherwise’ in ‘exactly the same circumstances’ and in ’slightly different circumstances’. He points out that ‘could have done otherwise in exactly the same circumstances’ has no useful meaning : the same set of micro-states, ignoring quantum fluctuations, will always give the same outcome. Including for arbitrary or mad acts. Further, given quantum indeterminacy, ‘exactly the same circumstances’ can never hold, so if moral responsibility rests on our asking could we have done differently, the question is unanswerable, so no-one would be able to determine moral responsibility. Thus, what we mean when we talk about ‘could have done otherwise’ is typically : « if the same general set of circumstances arose in the future, would my experience of the past situation prompt me to behave differently ? »

Finally he discusses the words ‘I can’. He concludes that ‘I can’ refers to the combination of two elements : my general potentials, skills, abilities, and possible states on the one hand, and epistemic possibility (i.e. what is possible as far as I know, given the limits of my knowledge in a chaotic pseudo-random environment) on the other. It does not refer to my hypothetical absolute freedom of action in a particular situation, nor to absolute logical or physical possibility.

Bottom line, the perceived importance of the question ‘Could I have done otherwise ?’ results from mistaking a practical question about my future behaviour for a metaphysical one about my past. The interface with moral responsibility is where you learn from the past to influence your future behaviour or you don’t (can the programming of the deliberation engine be improved or can’t it ?).

Dennett concludes his book by considering why it seems so important for (some of) us to have free will. He centres his thinking around the notion of moral responsibility, and asks, with false naiveté, why on Earth would we want all that responsibility ? He answers that the only useful notion of morality is social usefulness. The complex, sophisticated, multi-layered, reflexive, deliberating engine Mark III that we are takes in as one of its inputs that act (A) will have a probability (P) of consequence (C), and takes its heuristic, sub-optimised decisions appropriately. Acting morally becomes a bet on the consequences, whether they be the satisfaction of love or the expectation of punishment. Finally, to have free will, you must believe in it. The alternative is your (freely chosen) nihilism, apathy, and inaction, always assuming that our genetic makeup would ever let us get that far.

The book is dense, and the above does desperately little justice to it. My hope would be that I’ve made you curious to read Dennett. Despite my disappointment at some aspects of the book, I’m much the richer for having read it. All I have to do now is reconcile the aspects of his thinking which do convince me with the set of beliefs I brought to the party, those of non-dualistic Idealism !

Eeyore.

under: Metaphysics, Uncategorized

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Eeyore:

Many thanks for this.

I have read it through quickly so I might have misunderstood Dennett’s position on free will.

Could his position be summarised thus: ‘We live in a completely determined world but because we all believe that we have (a certain degree of) free will we cannot absolve ourselves of moral responsibility. We have evolved this belief in free will as a source of competitive advantage which has, so far, prevented us from murdering ourselves out of existence.’ The alternative is the descent into a Hobbesian nightmare.

If so, I agree in general. Whether free will is an illusion or not is irrelevant. Also, even if we can intellectually accept the case for determinism we cannot act other than if free will were a reality. In fact, such a belief in determinism might help us to evolve into a more humane being. We would be less likely to condemn and more willing to understand – empathy might supersede blame as the foundation for our moral framework. Steven Pinker has identified some evidence that this is already beginning to happen: http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/pinker07/pinker07_index.html

You say that he has challenged your position as a non-dualistic idealist – how? Again, I might have misunderstood but the broad thrust of his argument refutes dualism and does not seem to contradict idealism. Is he, do you think, a convinced materialist? You drop a hint to that effect at the top of the article.

I have two other observations:

- luck or chance is merely ignorance of all the factors that create a particular effect; and

- quantum randomness, as in Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle, is a red herring in the context of a debate on free will but entanglement might not be.

Eeyore:

Many thanks for this – much food for thought. I am certainly more curious to read Dennett and as luck/fate/divine providence would have it am due to go to the bookshop today.

Note that the title of the book is “ELBOW ROOM”. This slipped between the cracks in the communication between myself and Boltonian. He has a more recent Free Will book entitled “FREEDOM EVOLVES”, which I haven’t read but understand to be more heavily based on evolutionary concepts.

Eeyore:

Many apologies – I will amend it immediately.

Here is Strawson’s take (from a famous article) on free will, lifted from the ‘Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy.’

‘In an influential article, Peter Strawson argues that the many of the traditional debates between compatibilists and incompatibilists (such as how to understand the ability to do otherwise) are misguided [P. Strawson (1963)]. Strawson thinks that we should instead focus on what he calls the reactive attitudes—those attitudes we have toward other people based on their attitudes toward and treatment of us. Strawson says that the hallmark of reactive attitudes is that they are “essentially natural human reactions to the good or ill will or indifference of others toward us, as displayed in their attitudes and actions.” Examples of reactive attitudes include gratitude, resentment, forgiveness and love. Strawson thinks that these attitudes are crucial to the interpersonal interactions and that they provide the basis for holding individuals morally responsible. Strawson then argues for two claims. The first of these is that an agent’s reactive attitudes would not be affected by a belief that determinism was true:

The human commitment to participation in ordinary interpersonal relationships is, I think, too thoroughgoing and deeply rooted for us to take seriously the thought that a general theoretical conviction might so change our world that, in it, there were no longer such things as inter-personal relationships as we normally understand them.… A sustained objectivity of inter-personal attitude, and the human isolation which that would entail, does not seem to be something of which human beings would be capable, even if some general truth were a theoretical ground for it.

Furthermore, Strawson also argues for a normative claim: the truth of determinism should not undermine our reactive attitudes. He thinks that there are two kinds of cases where it is appropriate to suspend our reactive attitudes. One involves agents, such as young children or the mentally disabled, who are not moral agents. Strawson thinks that we should not have reactive attitudes toward non-moral agents. The second kind of case where it is appropriate to suspend our reactive attitudes are those in which while the agent is a moral agent, his action toward us is not connected to his agency in the correct way. For instance, while I might have the reactive attitude of resentment towards someone who bumps into me and makes me spill my drink, if I were to find out that the person was pushed into me, I would not be justified in resenting that individual. The truth of determinism, however, would neither entail that no agents are moral agents nor that none of an agent’s actions are connected to his moral agency. Thus, Strawson thinks, the truth of determinism should not undermine our reactive attitudes. Since moral responsibility is based on the reactive attitudes, Strawson thinks that moral responsibility is compatible with the truth of determinism. And if free will is a requirement for moral responsibility, Strawson’s argument gives support to compatibilism.’

Boltonian, thanks for accepting the post.
Dennett in fact comes at moral responsibility from two sides : the individual in his acts of heuristic ’self creation’ on the one hand, and the social-evolutionary on the other hand.
On the social-evolutionary side, I think you’ve got it right.
To illustrate his thinking on the first strand, the individual in his acts of self creation, he specifically states that ‘there but for the grace of God go I’ is ‘a very curious sentiment, repeated in our times with an even more curious meaning’.
Dennett places much emphasis on (moral) skill levels. If we’ve done a good job at self development we’ll be sufficiently morally skilled that ‘there but for the grace of God’ is unthinkable. We won’t even notice the temptations. So for him there is no guilt (he never uses that word), there is just less than optimum self development, which can or can’t be corrected.
I’ll come back on Strawson, whom Dennett references abundantly, after more thought.

A further reply, on why Dennett leads me to question my non-dualistic idealism.

My beliefs arose from looking for an answer to the mind-body question. I am ignorant of any formal philosophy of Idealism, never read Plato. Paul Brunton was a major influence, as was the Gita. Spirit subtends matter, matter is a manifestation of spirit. Individual consciousness is a cloud which masks a deeper spirit, which can be discovered through meditation. The universal spirit has direction, a word I prefer to ‘purpose’, and this direction can irrupt very pragmatically and spectacularly in our lives, particularly through serendipity of a staggeringly improbable nature.

Now, if the mind-body question can be resolved on purely materialistic lines, perhaps the whole edifice falls down…… Except of course for my personal experiences of such serendipity.

Eeyore:

Dualism, I agree, does not really stand up to scrutiny. It has serious problems to address, such as how the two entities relate to each other and what is the other if the one is material etc.

Idealism, however, cannot really be refuted. One might not agree with it but that is not quite the same thing. Everything we experience comes to us through the senses and is mediated in the brain – how, then, can we know that there is a material world, let alone an objective reality, out there?

eeyore: “My beliefs arose from looking for an answer to the mind-body question…Spirit subtends matter, matter is a manifestation of spirit. Individual consciousness is a cloud which masks a deeper spirit, which can be discovered through meditation. The universal spirit has direction, a word I prefer to ‘purpose’, and this direction can irrupt very pragmatically and spectacularly in our lives, particularly through serendipity of a staggeringly improbable nature.”

With a few word changes here and there, this is not so very different from my present stance, although I would add other regions of self beyond “individual” and “universal.” (”Universal” is so vast.)

“Now, if the mind-body question can be resolved on purely materialistic lines, perhaps the whole edifice falls down…… Except of course for my personal experiences of such serendipity.”

I don’t believe this can ever be resolved on such lines, owing to the nature of both mind and matter, but as always I can only point to techniques for experiencing, not the same as “proving.”

Would you care to post of your serendipitous experiences?

Boltonian: “Dualism, I agree, does not really stand up to scrutiny. It has serious problems to address, such as how the two entities relate to each other and what is the other if the one is material etc.”

Depending on how the word is defined, there are a number of solutions, some quite intriguing, some quite arcane.

The work of early and highly intelligent and persistent “psychical researchers” is of interest in this regard, although it never seemed to get anywhere after they died (and interesting story in itself, as each apparently endeavored to communicate with the surviving researchers after death, those communications themselves becoming the focus of highly skeptical examination).

Although many of them were highly respected scientists, their work never commanded the respect it deserved, the whole area of study gradually drifting into nearly complete disrespect, something no reputable scientist would dare touch. (There are a few exceptions.)

Nevertheless, in some ways what they achieved shed more light on mind-body questions (still unanswered, over one hundred years later) than anything anyone did afterwards.

(This strays ever further from determinism and free will. My apologies.)

“Idealism, however, cannot really be refuted. One might not agree with it but that is not quite the same thing. Everything we experience comes to us through the senses and is mediated in the brain – how, then, can we know that there is a material world, let alone an objective reality, out there?”

James, Myers, and company were never completely convinced that communications allegedly from the dead necessarily originated from those now clearly lacking physical brains and senses; they allowed that other possibilities for mediums knowing details they could not have known existed, including telepathy.

All they could truly say was that a certain percentage of that which they encountered defied scientific analysis (about 5% of years and years of research).

If, however, someone could find a way to show that indeed, there is a part of mind that transcends physical life (among other features of physical reality), then surely that part of mind could not be physical.

If so, you _could_ make a dualistic division, but who is to say that the division wouldn’t actually be artificial, that matter and mind (and brain and whatever exists after death) aren’t part of some greater unity?

Many of the unofficial (and largely unacceptable and often “occult”) explanations suggest the existence of various graduated continuua, “planes,” “energies,” and so on, or that, perhaps, what we call matter is really a kind of congealed thought, our physical senses and nervous systems key to not just perceiving it but also literally “creating” it, with the physical universe being but one particular domain of many.

I believe one key to knowing — not the same as proving — requires techniques such as meditation, but it may be that we shall find ourselves dead, knowing, and still completely unable to prove any of this to anyone.

Certainly those who meditate can share their experiences, although of course these vary all over the place, and only a very small percentage of meditators choose to actively explore those regions of the “unconscious” wherein, apparently, various species of “non-material” personalities (including non-material regions of self) are accessible, while meditating.

I often wonder whether it’s possible that some kind of consensus might actually arise, someday, despite the extreme difficulties; that is, widespread agreement in theory. technique, and experience, which cuts across not just various scientific disciplines but also certain philosophies.

Might this happen before the question of free will/determinism is firmly resolved? Maybe; certainly there would no shortage of time.

Bill

Boltonian,
on Strawson, Dennett actually uses the same quote as yours : “The human commitment to participation in ordinary interpersonal relationships is, I think, too thoroughgoing and deeply rooted …”. All his citations of Strawson are approving.

Looking at Strawson’s extended arguments on ‘reactiveness’ from the Encyclopaedia article, a couple of comments :
- reactiveness is clearly compatible with determinism : one’s emotional reactions are all part of the grand causal chain
- it’s less clear how that observation adds much in the area of moral responsibility : reactive attitudes exist, they are caused, they have proved successful in ev. psych. terms, so what ?

Strawson, elsewhere, has referred to Libertarianism as ‘an obscure and panicky metaphysics’. I infer that he’s not a fan of the Absolute Agent or the Unmoved Mover. It’s still not clear to me what moral responsibility means for him, however, unless it be that with Dennett he believes that in ‘holding s/o responsible’ or ‘claiming responsibility’ we are engaging in a positive act of constructing the present, with implications for the future, rather than in ultimately meaningless speculation about a ‘might have been’.

Bill :
“If so, you _could_ make a dualistic division, but who is to say that the division wouldn’t actually be artificial, that matter and mind (and brain and whatever exists after death) aren’t part of some greater unity?”

I feel that the direction of your thinking here is very similar to that which I’ve been through. Dualism breaks down, I think, on the point that any way a dualistic mind could interact with matter would make it ipso facto part of the material domain. If anyone knows of any convincing contrary arguments, I’d be glad to hear them.

On parapsychology, I feel it’s such a minefield that it would require more personal investment than I’m capable of to get to an informed opinion either way…

Boltonian,

on absolute solipcism, I don’t see how it could be refuted. You can just observe :
a) that way lies madness (or if you prefer, breakdown of the internal coherence of the solipsistic mind, through failure to deal adequately with the outside world)
b) the world can always surprise you
c) if solipcism is true, and the world is a construction internal to my mind, I’d construct it so that my football team was just a little further from the relegation zone….

Bill:

Re-dualism, I am not convinced that the world is material in any objective sense thus obviating the need for two substances. We create categories to make sense of the world but they do not necessarily accord with reality (if such a thing exists). The world is only material because we make it so.

Eeyore:

Your objections to any form of dualism so far proposed are spot on.

It really is better to read the original Strawson essay called, ‘Freedom and Resentment’ but I only have it (an extract) in hard copy and it would take me some time to transcribe it into electronic format. I might have a trawl around the internet to see if exists on a website somewhere.

You touch on time, as in Dennett’s proposition that we can have some influence over events in the future by our actions in the present. This presupposes that time, as we commonly understand it, exists. The arrow of time supposedly flows from the past, through the present and towards the future.

The past is dependent on memory – experience, and the ability to interpret those experiences accurately and meaningfully. We might experience the same event but would disagree about what actually occurred and what it means. So, the past really does not exist in any objective sense, only as a collection of subjective data, almost all of which will be flawed.

The future has not occurred and so lies outside our experience and exists as potentiality only. We can never gather sufficient information to accurately and confidently predict what will happen with any certainty. The future does not, therefore, exist either. The present presupposes that there is an instant which is neither past nor future, which there isn’t. Therefore, does time really exist?

I wasn’t really advocating solipsism, although it is impossible to refute, I agree. I was simply putting a counter-argument against materialism and in favour of idealism. I have no strong views here but tend towards idealism in that our entire knowledge of the world is mental, i.e. non-material.

Also, the more scientific knowledge we accumulate the less material the world appears.

eeyore: “On parapsychology, I feel it’s such a minefield that it would require more personal investment than I’m capable of to get to an informed opinion either way…”

Regarding the discipline itself (I’d say it’s bonafide, but genuine practitioners and their results tend to be ignored and belittled; a case in point is the Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research group, recently defunct — a search on the name within the New York Times archives will bring up a very interesting article), I long felt much the same way.

Then, recently, I came across and read the delightful _Ghost Hunters_ by Deborah Blum, the science writer. References to this (and an on-line interview) are found in the small “Psychical Research” section on my Resources page at RealityTest . com /resources . htm (I’m avoiding putting the links in as Edublog doesn’t like links — see the clickable links on the upper left of that page.)

Ms. Blum’s book describes the activities of Frederic Myers, Henry and Nora Sidgwick, William James, and others that I’ve been referring to here and on CiF recently.

The beginnings of parapsychology in Victorian times seem pure, in a way; fresh. (Modern psychology itself was just beginning, then, not that long after Darwin, while Freud and his disciples had yet to gain prominence.)

Boltonian’s remark re: accumulating scientific knowledge is totally on the mark, in my opinion, but I doubt any of us here would care to approach anything even slightly “What the Bleep?”-like in our discussions.

I note, too, that a form of Neo-Idealism is slowly gaining favor with some of the philosophers of consciousness studies.

I lack the time at the moment to discourse on various forms of dualism; although familiar with a number of these, I am more or less in agreement with the remarks you and Boltonian have made, while the topic of time itself is of great interest to me (this is obvious if you view my small website).

The consensus I posited suggests, again, the possibility of a cross-discipline convergence encompassing a broad swatch of areas, from the mainstream scientific to what is still frequently considered preposterous, from antique philosophies and sects to the experiential.

This is exciting, but even though I write of this (as do many others), I know that it is next to impossible to do so at the moment without becoming associated with those who may be a bit too wild and exuberant in their enthusiastic expression, turning off all who prefer a somewhat more serious approach.

(The folks of the Noetics Society, for example, don’t particularly impress me.)

Being overly serious also seems to miss the mark.

As a result, my own web-page writing has a certain degree of humor mixed in with attempts to be quite serious, but then most attempts to approach this must cope with a genuine sense of absurdity.

Bill

A link to Strawson’s ‘Freedom and Resentment’, which I will now read.
http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/strawson_pf.htm

Happy New Year to One and All.

The jury on solipsism is still out : the lads just managed a draw.

Eeyore:

Many thanks for digging this out.

It is considerably longer and more complex than the piece in my philosophy reader. The abridged version I have formed part of an on-line philosophy course I undertook some while ago.

I think his view can be summarised thus:

‘Belief in determinism can have little or no effect on our moral attitudes for these are bound up with our irreducible nature which, therefore, cannot be eradicated no matter how powerful the intellectual argument.’

This was my instinctive position before reading the piece, so I suppose it reinforces an existing prejudice.

Which particular ‘Lads’ do you follow? My team is obvious and plays tomorrow.

Yup, that’s pretty much the sense I got by reading Strawson’s piece (rapidly, diagonally, and squinting with one eye half closed). He doesn’t address free will explicitly, and starts by stating he doesn’t have a clear definition for Determinism. Then goes into a very elaborate derivation of morality from our natural human emotions in interaction, and from the situations when we treat others as partners in interaction or as objects incapable of interaction (and thus spared our expectations and our reactions of gratitude, resentment, or whatever). Then he generalises from our one-on-one interactions to our conceptions of interactions in general. Finally he concludes that the moral system so founded would not be modified if we tried to refound it on a rational (utilitarian) basis, as it’s the one most consistent with human nature and most conducive to human well being.

I tentatively conclude that if Strawson can discuss the link between determinism and moral responsibility without evoking free will, then it should be possible to discuss the link between determinism and free will without evoking moral responsibility.

I just typed in ‘free will’ on the site where the Strawson paper is hosted, and got 169 hits.

Apparently heavily weighted towards the classics, but also Alan Turing (next to Anselm of Canterbury) and Tom Wolfe (between Hegel and Plato).

The site owner himself seems to have his own views…. and based on a first glance I really wouldn’t want to go there. Ah well, as long as he’s a good librarian.

[...] Dennett – A summary of Free Will [...]

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