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A Jesuit Perspective of Richard Dawkins

Posted by: gordy | March 8, 2008 | 25 Comments |

I recently came across the article below and wanted to share it with you. The article, originally published in Thinking Faith, the online journal of the British Jesuits under the title, “Dawkins: what he, and we, need to learn” is re-published here with kind permission from Dr Gerard J Hughes S.J.

Oxford philosopher, Gerard J Hughes SJ, takes a critical look at the views of the ‘arch-enemy of religion’, Richard Dawkins, but also notes how the attitudes and behaviour of some Christians play into his hands.

How do you react to Professor Richard Dawkins’ views on the pernicious nature of all religion and of Christianity in particular? A mixture of outrage, a certain sneaking sympathy, and a desire to hear what might be said by way of serious reply? All three responses are fair enough, I think. In the following brief reflections, I am not going to have much to say about what is outrageous in Dawkins. For detailed, measured and trenchant responses, I would thoroughly recommend the books by Alistair McGrath and Keith Ward. What I want to do here is to suggest what Christians might have to learn from the fact that some of his criticisms do strike a sympathetic chord in many of his readers, and even in many of his Christian readers. In so doing, I hope to show why it is that his many valid points do not in the end succeed in making his overall case.

Dawkins returns time and again to the same basic points. The first is that Christians, in their belief that the bible is an inspired book, are committed either to believing many things which are scientifically indefensible, or to adopting various dishonest evasive manoeuvres to try to deny that the most absurd of these statements are in the bible at all. His second point is that Christians hold a view of faith which places religious faith completely beyond reasonable discussion or scientific counter-argument. In our modern world, such unsupported prejudices deserve no credence, and can be positively damaging. Any beliefs worthy of respect must stand up to scientific criticism. Science is the gold standard for all truth.

I shall argue that we Christians have ourselves unfortunately provided some grounds for each of the two main criticisms: I shall further argue that there is no need for us to do anything of the kind; and I shall conclude with some brief thoughts about Dawkins’ views of science.

What the Bible actually claims to be true

It seems undeniable that most Christians, or at least those in the West, have gradually over the centuries lost touch with the languages and cultures in which the biblical texts, both Jewish and Christian, were written. The result is that Christian tradition generally has tended more and more to take all narrative passages in the biblical books as if they were descriptions of historical events, often entirely missing the crucial theological messages which those passages contained.

How do we typically try to express truths? Our normal style is to try to formulate straightforward predominantly factual statements, shorn of metaphor, lacking in poetic charm, but making the most of clarity and precision. I say that predominantly we express ourselves like that; but even we do other things as well. Contemporary scientists, at least when they are working at the limits of our understanding, themselves have to use metaphors and models – black holes, tiny strings vibrating in ten dimensions, particles with spin and charm, selfish genes. And more broadly, we might wish to insist that there are many truths about ourselves and our world which cannot be properly captured other than in poetry. Still, in our post-Enlightenment culture we do tend to focus primarily on the straight, unvarnished, precise facts. It was not always thus, however. The emphasis on metaphor and models played a larger role in civilisations which were less able to conduct precise measurements, less interested, perhaps, in purely mechanical facts. In understanding what was written in distant civilisations we need constantly to bear in mind what were their interests, and how their linguistic conventions worked in the expression of truth.

In some future era, even our own culture could be open to much misunderstanding. Imagine a future generation which no longer realised that Dad’s Army or Yes, Minister are sitcoms, and took the first as a documentary on the Home Guard, and the second as the video-records of meetings in the conclaves of Whitehall; or did not realise that Animal Farm is an allegorical novel, and read it as a description of some extraordinary episode in evolutionary history. Such mistakes simply could not be made by our contemporaries, because we are all well aware of the conventions and concerns of our culture; we effortlessly pick up the relevant cues in the sitcoms, we promptly see the point of the details in the allegorical narrative. All three make comments on our world, comments which may or may not give a fair picture of how things are: but they do not say what they say in straightforward factual ways. Failure to grasp that is a fundamental misunderstanding. But mistakes of just those kinds have frequently been made by Christians who took the opening chapters of the book of Genesis as a factual description of the stages in which the matter in the universe was organised into the cosmos as we know it. Later Christians were insufficiently attuned to the concerns of the author to see that those chapters are above all a monotheistic manifesto, a theological counterblast to those contemporary polytheist accounts which explained the conflict of good and evil in our world as the result of quarrels between good and bad gods. The writer of these chapters of Genesis is making an important statement, indeed; the claim is that there is but one God, that he made everything, and that everything he made was good. If there is suffering and death in our world, that explanation has to be sought elsewhere, in human failures but not in polytheism. Those, rather than truths about astrophysics, are the truths upon which the texts are focussed.

Similarly, the narratives of the conception, birth and infancy of Jesus in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke are theological prefaces to the description of Jesus’ ministry, with which all four Gospels begin their more straightforward account of what Jesus said and did. The aim of the infancy narratives is to give an imaginative presentation of some profound theological truths – that Jesus is more than a prophet, that he is messiah, sent directly from God; that his ministry is that of a second Moses; that he fulfils the expectations of Jewish tradition despite his sufferings and his apparent powerlessness. The Fourth Gospel in its opening chapter makes just the same points, only this time they are couched in abstract rather than imaginative language. In all four gospels the aim is that the reader should come to the account of the ministry of Jesus with the theological stage well and truly set. It is a mistake to read them as giving a chronological history of the events in Jesus’ early years, just as it is to read Animal Farm as recounting what really happened in some part of rural Sussex or wherever, or Yes, Minister as the tape of actual Whitehall conversations. Yet the novel is offering insights into the historical appeal of Marxist totalitarianism and the corruption to which it leads, and the sitcom is laughing at the delusions which politicians actually have about their own power. Just so, the infancy narratives are concerned with the true significance of Jesus’ life, but what they have to say does not depend on their being a factual record of Jesus’ early years; they prepare the reader to grasp the true significance of the two or three years during which Jesus lived, preached and died.

Dawkins, frequently treats these and other parts of the Bible in a way in which he would never dream of treating Dad’s Army, Yes, Minister or Animal Farm. But he has been given considerable encouragement to do so by the way in which Christians themselves have misread the bible and in so doing have failed to see which are the truths which the biblical texts convey. Thus, some Christians have responded to his misdirected criticisms by trying to defend creationism, or the moving star of Bethlehem, as though the bible is trying to make truth claims about cosmogony or astronomy, rather than about monotheism and Christology. The bible, so far as I know, says nothing which is either directly compatible or in any way incompatible with evolution, for the simple reason that nothing the Bible claims to be true relates to that topic at all. Space does not here permit me to make similar points about many other biblical passages, where theological argument is all too frequently mistaken for scientific or historical description.

I am not in any sense, as Dawkins often hints, advocating some kind of devious evasiveness, ’sophisticated’ Christianity in some pejorative sense, any more than I am being devious in my reading of Animal Farm. There is plenty of evidence – as Dawkins rightly insists we look for, and would, I hope, himself be ready to consider – to show that these ancient texts would have been immediately understood by their authors and original audiences in the ways I have suggested. That evidence is to be found by understanding the cultures in which those texts arose – what they were concerned with, what they took to be controversial and important to get right, and what literary devices they had at their disposal to get their points across. To varying degrees, all the Christian churches have, sadly, been nervous and slow to see the importance and true value of such evidence, and have for too long behaved as if a simple list of events were the most or the only important things which the biblical books had to give us. It is to a considerable extent our own fault that Christianity has been so misunderstood. In a strange way, many Christians and Dawkins start from the same mistaken views about what the biblical writers actually claim to be true. Both sides need radical re-education before any debate between Dawkins and Christians can be at all useful to anyone interested in the truth.

The perils of blind faith

The other constant theme in Dawkins’ criticism of religions, or at any rate of Christianity, is what he takes to be the way in which faith is promoted as a virtue; for, he argues, to do that is to imply that it is positively admirable to hold beliefs for which there is no good evidence. Once again, it seems to me that in Christian history there has been at least some basis for this criticism. This can be seen in the ways in which Christian authorities have responded when anything comes up which even appears to provide good grounds for questioning what is authoritatively taught. The basis of the authority can vary considerably: it might be what is taken to be the clear teaching of the bible; or some position to which a Christian church has been committed for a long time and perhaps has never questioned at all; it might be what is insisted upon by legitimate church authority at some particular time of crisis or dispute. If reasons for questioning such a position are advanced, they may be moral, or philosophical, or scientific – consider disputes about contraception, or homosexuality; or disputes about the ordination of women based upon a philosophical doctrine of non-discrimination; or about whether it is essential to Christianity to hold that we are all descended from just one pair of humans, or whether it makes sense to speak of an immortal soul. One possible religious response to any of these issues is to appeal to the status of the authority in question – the bible, or the bishops, or the pope, or the general assembly, claiming that such an authority cannot be vulnerable to attacks based on purely secular considerations. The bible is divinely inspired, the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit, what is taught is therefore to be believed without question by the faithful.

Very few Christians, and certainly very few Catholics, have seriously maintained that anyone has to believe, in faith, something which is contrary to what can be rationally established. Even the classical American Fundamentalists in the late nineteenth and twentieth centuries in their various ways held that science could indeed support what they believed to be the truths taught by the bible. They thought there was, or could be found, archaeological evidence for the age of the earth which would match calculations made from biblical data on the ages of the patriarchs, or would demonstrate the universality of the Flood, or the existence of leviathans capable of giving hospitality to Jonah. Whatever one might think about the reasonableness of such expectations, they were part of an overall view that faith and human reason could not in the end conflict.

That overall view is clear in theory: reason and faith cannot ultimately conflict, since truth is one. But there are two important points which need to be made. The first is to do with ‘mysteries’. Dawkins in one place suggests that religion does not want to solve mysteries. In one sense I think this is true. The nature of God is, I would suggest, irreducibly mysterious beyond our comprehension. To recognise this is no more than to acknowledge the limits of the human mind. What we can truly say about God is limited: and even what we believe about God in the light of revelation is limited by the fact that revelation itself is unavoidably restricted to what we can to some extent understand. Since we cannot comprehend the nature of God, neither can we fully comprehend what it means to say of a man that he is God. But we can realise that to say that Jesus is both God and man is not at all the same kind of assertion as, for instance,that a centaur is both horse and man. In the centaur case, we are dealing with two created, and therefore limited, kinds of thing, and we are trying to add them together as best we may. We have all seen statues of centaurs. But the divine nature and human nature are not two kinds of thing at all. God is transcendent; that is to say, God is not a kind of thing, nor a member of a kind, which can in any sense be ‘added’ to something else which is a member of another, human, kind. The unity of God and man in Jesus is in the strictest sense a mystery; trying to ’solve it’ by any kind of cut and paste technique is almost certainly going to lead either to a damaging kind of ‘dumbing down’, or else to a denial that Jesus is fully human, ‘like us in everything apart from sin.’ The Arian and the Docetist heresies are examples of the dangers of trying to understand: the first ‘dumbs down’ by denying that there is anything more to be said of the earthly Jesus of Nazareth than can be said of any human being: the second tries to say so much more (about what Jesus knew, or his relationship to the Father, or his inability to sin, to take some examples) that in the end Jesus ends up simply as God appearing in some ways to be human. In the end we have to believe, but not understand, that Jesus is fully God and fully human; and we must explain why there are good reasons for not expecting to be able to say more. Saying too much about mysteries is almost always ill advised.

But Dawkins’ main complaint is that believers prefer unsolved ‘mysteries’ even when dealing with perfectly ordinary this-world realities. If someone dies a mysterious death, the true believer, he suggests, must prefer to say that God struck them down than to try to learn more about the medical condition from which the person died. Dawkins strongly disapproves of appealing to faith when there appear to be perfectly good rational ways of trying to reach conclusions about something. This seems to me to be a perfectly proper approach to take. Certainly in the Catholic tradition, in which the importance of reason in both theology and in ethics is emphasised, there is no disagreement in principle with what Dawkins says on this point. But of course that does not settle everything, for two reasons:

First, it is not always clear whether the issue is one which involves faith or one which can and should be settled on rational grounds; the legitimacy of the ordination of women would be one such example. The Pontifical Biblical commission concluded that there were no strictly biblical arguments against the ordination of women; and it is not entirely clear from the way the topic is currently discussed in Catholic or in Anglican circles whether the main dispute is a rational one about the status of women and the suitability of women acting in a role which is intended to symbolise what a man, Jesus of Nazareth, once did. It has also been argued that the issue is to be settled on strictly theological grounds.

Secondly, in ethics, the general view that ethical requirements derive from the nature of human beings does indeed leave room for dispute on what conclusions can be drawn from that statement; but it does not sit at all easily with the claim that there can be good theological reasons for going against what might be thought to be the balance of reasonable opinion. Nor does it remotely suggest that Christians should regard as especially important those ethical issues which are immediately connected to sexual conduct. Dawkins all too often has a point. An eminent Christian moral philosopher once remarked to me how distressed he was to see how often the Christian churches produce arguments in ethics which he would not have accepted from a second year philosophy undergraduate. Ethics is, and should be, a complex subject, because human beings are complex creatures, and the ways in which they are capable of interacting with one another and with their environments are likewise complex and very varied. How any of these considerations in the end affects human fulfilment is not always at all easy to determine – as current discussions about the environment, or genetic engineering, or the global economy, or developmental psychology amply demonstrate. There is nothing in Christianity which suggests that these issues ought to be at once simple and clear, much as we might wish that they were; and nothing that would justify the claim to settle them by appeal to revelation when the empirical facts would support more than one reasonable conclusion.

Science in its place

Where I think Dawkins is at his weakest is in what I would term his ’scientism’. This is disguised by the fact that he at every turn insists upon the importance of evidence, as indeed he should (though it must be said that he does not in this respect always practise what he preaches). The claim that every question about ourselves and our world can in principle be settled by methods which can ultimately be reduced to those of physics is a highly disputable claim, disputable for reasons which have nothing to do with religion. The debates in neuroscience, for instance, reveal a near-deadlock, with some neuroscientists and some philosophers on each side, about whether the phenomenon of consciousness, or the content of concepts and beliefs, can be explained simply in terms of neuro-electronics; indeed there is not even agreement on what will count as an explanation. Again, suppose the universe of space-time to have had a beginning, it is plain enough that its appearance is not going to be explicable simply by appeal to the laws of physics, whose truth is contingent upon the existence of the universe which they describe. If the coming-to-be of the universe is to be explained, then both the sense of ‘explain’ and the type of explanation are not going to be scientific. Nor can God be described, as Dawkins often does, as ‘improbable’; for he intends that term to be understood at least vaguely in the same sense in which it might appear in a scientific argument. But he gives absolutely no account of what the basis for the calculation of probability might be based upon in the case of God; nor indeed whether it makes any sense at all to require that God’s existence be probable in a scientific sense. Whether there are good reasons for holding that God exists is indeed a controversial question; but it is not, nor is it reducible to, a scientific question. And even Dawkins, in his rather confused studies of moral issues, while rightly insisting that there might be scientific evidence which is relevant to those issues (for instance, the rate and causes of global warming), has nothing coherent to say to support his extraordinary claim that ethical argument is no more than a sub-section of scientific argument.

I cannot comment on how good a biologist Dawkins is: but it seems to me that there are good reasons for saying that his claim that all arguments must in the end be settled by appeal to physical evidence is itself quite unproven – and that it does not even remotely sound like the kind of claim that could be proved on Dawkins’ own terms.

Summing it all up

To conclude, then. Dawkins does indeed provide a useful wake-up call to make the accepted conclusions of most biblical scholars and most theologians much more widely known and accepted in the Christian churches. Believers have on the whole a bad record in the way we respond to the advancement of science and the growing complexity of morality in our technologically and environmentally ever more complex world. We have tended to sound, and often to be, reluctant to accept undisputed scientific findings so that we can try to work out how they can be integrated into our overall picture of our world as God’s creation. The lessons of Galileo, biblical criticism, evolutionary biology, contemporary physics, psychology and medicine forever seem to catch believers unprepared, nervous, and defensive. At his best, Dawkins calls attention to that fact. At his worst, the exaggerations which he has to make serve only to indicate why such nervous reluctance on the part of believers is ultimately unnecessary.Gerry J Hughes SJ was head of the philosophy department at Heythrop College, University of London, and is currently tutor in philosophy at Campion Hall, Oxford. He is the author of “Aristotle on Ethics” and “Is God to Blame?”

   This article was originally published in Thinking Faith, the online journal of the British Jesuits

under: Philosophy of religion

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Gordy:

Many thanks.

Much to reflect on – I will try to give a considered response in the next few days.

It’s difficult to respond to such an article in the polite manner befitting this blog; but I’ll try. I would have three main criticisms of Hughes’ arguments.

Firstly, it is couched in such a way as to suggest that Dawkins is the only one to have ever put forward counterarguments to the God question. Too much emphasis is laid on trying to discredit one man, rather than dealing with the arguments per se (which have been, and continue to be, made by many others.) There are a few almost subliminal ad hominems in the article to this end, irrelevant to the arguments.

Secondly, we are once again told (I simplify – but only slightly) that inconsistencies in the bible, both internal and when compared with the present day canon of knowledge, can be resolved by treating the entire old testament as metaphor. Yet the literal truth of the new testament is taken as unassailable. A good deal of circular argument swirls around in support of this view. Yet without the strong historical and scientific evidence (can’t avoid the word, much as I try), wouldn’t Christianity still be claiming the literariness of the old testament? I just see a backsliding where Christianity has been definitively found out, and a stubbornness elsewhere, even though surely the bible should stand or fall as a whole. It would be difficult to disprove every single event related therein; but other books and rational arguments are apparently happily discarded on the basis of a single flaw or a few. It seems to me that enough of its contents have been rendered unreliable, or downgraded to metaphorical, that we’ve long passed that particular tipping point with the bible.

Finally, Hughes says: “…it seems to me that there are good reasons for saying that his [Dawkins'] claim that all arguments must in the end be settled by appeal to physical evidence is itself quite unproven…” I think this is a misreading – it’s not just physical evidence, but rational evidence which is relevant. This is by definition, since we wouldn’t want to settle any other debate by recourse to irrational argument – even the unsolved (and possibly unresolvable) frontier debates about the origin of the universe and the nature of consciousness restrict themselves to the rational. Thus these two areas aren’t good examples to set alongside the God question; unless one wants to further emphasise the irrationality of faith.

These are my initial thoughts but I will re-read the article and give a more detailed response.

This is a far from convincing (at least to me) apologia for Christianity and I am certainly no Dawkins advocate.

When he refers to Christianity I take it that he means Roman Catholicism and, perhaps further, the Jesuitical branch of the church. Most Protestant churches take the Bible as their starting point and broke with the Pope in order to return to a purer form of the faith based on the scriptures. Literalism ceased to be the norm only very recently and we all know that there is a revival underway. There are 22,000 sects and churches worldwide each claiming to be Christian and many in flat contradiction with each other.

Everything, in one sense, is metaphor, including the scientific concepts he refers to. But the point is at what level. The creationism and explanatory parts of the OT are almost entirely couched in poetic myth, the lingua franca of a largely illiterate society. And this emphatically includes the so-called historical books, which were compiled many years after the event they seek to illustrate.

The NT is also metaphor and it cannot be seen as one work. Even a casual glance shows that it cannot be divinely inspired unless God is contrary, confused and capricious. John contradicts much of what is written in the synoptics and they disagree with each other. All ahve been heavily edited to suit the purposes of various editors since they were written.

Much church doctrine cannot be found in the Gospels. Jesus cannot be both Messiah and the Son of God. How many times did he visit Jerusalem, once or thrice? Which version of his death, burial and resurrection should we believe? Did he believe the rich could not enter heaven or that to those that have etc? The inconsistencies and contradictions are numerous.

The NT is much more likely to be a variety of accounts of the development of the early church. If there were not still ardent believers around we would not even be discussing the validity of the scriptures as metaphysics but considering them as valuable historical documents – a window on past and long-dead cultures.

It is only recently that faith has begun to take more of a back seat so that serious scholarship is not suppressed or denigrated.

Objective, external and testable evidence is quite clearly very important to establishing the more likely scenarios. But it is not the whole truth and this is where Dawkins errs. Science is a process whereby we can eliminate many explanations but it does not provide a route to the truth (whatever that might be).

Dawkins fails to understand humanity’s need for answers – which is surprising because of his own certainties. We like explanatory stories that relate complex concepts in simple terms. Sure, we have advanced a little since many of the OT books were compiled but not as much as we would like to think. Our myths nowadays are merely slightly more sophisticated versions of ancient accounts. Science has eliminated many earlier explanations but replaced them with more that seem to fit the available facts. It is just that science has expanded our realm of ignorance.

Most Christian churches demand (but do not always get) doctrinal obedience – it is not an a la carte menu from which one can take the good bits. Accept all or nothing. This, in my view, is risible and has provided a huge block on learning (Buddhism is more civilised in this regard). Its purpose is purely about the getting and retaining of power and nothing whatsoever about trying to understand the world. I do not have a problem with this as it is, has been and always will be humanity’s main preoccupation but we should see it for what it is.

There is another side in that Christianity has also, paradoxically, been a source of new learning and advancement in many fields, often against the wishes of the establishment. Why? Because one cannot equip people with tools and only expect them to use them at all times in compliance with the instruction manual. Sometimes people will explore and test boundaries.

Orthodoxy will always seek a monopoly.

I will return to the theme if I get chance in the next day or so.

Well I have to say that despite my Scottishness we were not really served up a treat of rugby football this weekend ,were we?
Steve – Hi! Please excuse the rushed nature of the following thoughts but I’m struggling to stay awake here…In relation to your three points:
1. The article, specifically in its original context is not so much an apologia for the Christian faith but a response to the particular Dawkins phenomenon. Personally I missed the subliminal ad hominen attacks but I did notice attempts to give Dawkins credit where the author thought credit was due. For example:
“Dawkins strongly disapproves of appealing to faith when there appear to be perfectly good rational ways of trying to reach conclusions about something. This seems to me to be a perfectly proper approach to take.”
2. I don’t read into Hughes a distinction in terms of literalism between Old and New Testament.
“In all four gospels the aim is that the reader should come to the account of the ministry of Jesus with the theological stage well and truly set. It is a mistake to read them as giving a chronological history of the events in Jesus’ early years…”
You refer to the ‘downgrading’ of biblical texts in a way that implies a sleight of hand on behalf of Christian thinkers – a sort of rearguard action in a world where people are not so easily fooled.- but it’s also possible to portray this shift in understanding as a way of recognising the diverse literary genres and appreciating the sense in which they were written and impotantly, how they were originally understood. There’s quite a lot of evidence to suggest that a literal understanding of the Bible only developed and flourished since the time of the enlightenment
3. In relation to the third point I haven’t got access to my copy of TGD so I can’t check how fair Hughes’ assertion that Dawkins claims everything must in the end be settled by appeal to physical evidence is – clearly if that is not what Dawkins actually said then your point stands.

Hi Gordy

wrt the subliminal attacks on Dawkins….”Dawkins returns time and again to the same basic points.” (And religion doesn’t….?) “Both sides need radical re-education before any debate between Dawkins and Christians can be at all useful to anyone interested in the truth.” (Agreed, that’s just as critical towards the Christian rank and file as it is of Dawkins; but need it be said here?) “I cannot comment on how good a biologist Dawkins is: but…” (Why say that at all?) The overall impression is of damnation with faint praise….but my major gripe is that these are not just Dawkins’ points; nor was he the first to voice them….knock him down if you must, but the same arguments will resurface….

wrt my third point: I’ll readily admit to not having read TGD; the point is that if you restrict your arguments to irrational evidence, we atheists can always find an irrational counter….and thereafter we’ll all be bogged down in sterile relativism (which is a less successful defence of Christianity than you might suppose: for every subjective claim of “I feel God in my heart”, we’ll produce a witness who says he doesn’t; or that he feels a different god in his heart….)

The arguments need to move on from such subjectivity; otherwise my subjectivity merely cancels out yours.

I probably need to reread the original article before giving my own little thoughts on it. (There is something increasingly dissatisfying – for me – about anti-Dawkins articles, and I’m sure that this is in no small part related to the fact that I don’t think Dawkins’ book is, all things considered terribly impressive). One thing which I find curious is that in discussions of TGD, not many people – as far as I’m aware – discuss his chapter on ethics (I don’t have the one on natural selection/evolution/accounting for ‘morality’ in mind). For me, it was the most egregious chapter in the book, one which must have moral philosophers (incl atheists) turning in their graves, thought it does mean I get to use “egregious” once more.

To be honest, I’ve found the responses more interesting than the original piece (which doesn’t mean I think the original piece bad – I must sound so arrogant).

In particular, a few things strike me. First, so much ink is spilled over ‘inconsistencies’ in the bible. I’m not sure why this is – per se – so fascinating. By its nature, the bible is a collocation of quite disparate texts – what else would you expect? It might be retorted that this is only because Christians take it ‘literally’ or as a explanation (rivalling ‘naturalistic’ ones) for creation or whatever. Clearly this appeal has strong force: one example is in debates about specific issues (say, abortion), it is often said ‘Well, where does the bible say x?’.

Now, I don’t think all of this is completely whimsical: there are clearly some people to whom these criticisms might quite judiciously be addressed. But how normative it becomes to define the ‘Christian position’ is another matter altogether. The idea that ethics for the believer (to take one example) will simply be a case of finding nice, ready-made prohibitions obsesses the minds some Christians and some of their critics far too much. In sum, I agree that the presentation of Christians who are not literalists as (in that slippery word) “sophisticated” or as sleight of hand tricksters would do well to consider (as Gordy suggests) how modern this sort of understanding is. Read, say, an Origen or an Augustine or Gregory the Great (he wrote a massive commentary on the book of Job which – whatever else it might be – is certainly not the stuff of a ‘biblical fundamentalist’).

It seems to me that there are two interesting issues in this then: first, a historical sketch of this sort of thing (along the lines of Jaroslav Pelikan’s charting of ‘Jesus through the centuries’) might be instructive; and, second, some critical thought on the expectation (held, again, by some Christians and some critics) that Christians in some sense ‘ought’ to be literalists needs more careful thought. (The opening of Genesis is, I would argue, profoundly fascinating because of the theological anthropology which emerges from *both* creation accounts).

In terms of reading texts: it is often pointed out that the bible is just like any other text. This need not necessarily be so shocking for a believer. Two interesting things which might emerge: reading texts, deliberating on the word (and, indeed, the Word) is – surely – not a simply question of objective/subjective (in the stark terms this sort of distinction is made). And, second, the contexts in which texts are read (for instance, liturgical) might be interesting to consider too. (In addition to contexts of writing and so on).

On orthodoxy: I don’t deny Boltonian’s general picture of one socio-historical possibility which a concern for doctrine or orthodoxy generates. But I wonder whether things are more complicated. (’Orthodoxy’ and ‘doctrine’ have an ugly resonance for modern ears). Orthodoxy is, in a sense, not characterised by simple stability. It may be helpful to think in terms of continuities of conflicts or even tensions. And, again, I’m not so sure that the effects of this are always (or indeed overwhelmingly) negative, though I’m certainly not denying the possiblities (and, when you look back, actualities): in a broader scope, rationalities are borne through traditions which are loci of *both* stabilities and conflicts (and, indeed, this goes for, say, ’science’). There are creative possibilities precisely through negotiating orthodoxies: debates on Christology in the Greek East, for example, brought some fascinating questions about both biology and metaphysics.

Finally, a brief question on the ‘rational’, and I hope I dont seem provocative or sophistic: in a sense, are these debates partly about precisely what ‘rational’ means?

For what it’s worth, I often feel we can’t even get off the ground on CiF insofar as it’s taken for granted that a ‘rational argument’ would take the form of a ’scientific argument’. I have misgivings not only with the rather confident yet constricted characterisation of the latter and, moreover, the identification with the former.

ChooChoo:

Just a quick response.

You dismiss the point of biblical inconsistencies as a mere spilling of ink, as if it is not of much importance. This is, to me, a critical and, I might say fundamental, objection to the whole doctrinal edifice upon which Christianity stands. And Christianity is (whatever else it might be in its various manifestations) a doctrinaire faith.

I do not extrapolate from this that it (Christianity) is without merit nor that it has not at times been a force for good.

Let me make a comparison with Therevada Buddhism. Christianity demands a commitment to certain beliefs (otherwise one cannot be a Christian). This is an eclectic, and incomplete, list taken from what I know of the doctrines of some denominations:

- that there is one god;
- that Jesus is the promised Messiah;
- that He is the son of God;
- that his mother was a virgin;
- that he ate a last supper before being betrayed by one of his followers;
- that he was denounced by the Jewish religious hierarchy;
- that he was crucified;
- that he died on the cross;
- that he was resurrected;
- that he ascended to Heaven;
- that God is comprised of a Trinity;
- that only belief in Christ can lead to redemption; and so on.

The Bible, according to most denominations, is one divinely inspired book, not a collection of multi-authored documents written long after the events portrayed. In this case doctrinal consistency and purity is of first importance and not a ‘Nice to have.’

Therevada Buddhism, on the other hand, says something like, ‘ Here are some thoughts handed down through the generations and inspired by the teachings of the Buddha that might be of use to you. They will help you live a more fulfilling life and give you a perspective on the world through following the Buddha’s path to enlightenment.’

There is no coercion, no punishment for choosing another way, no mention of a god, no authority claiming privileged access to some invisible divinity. One takes what is useful from the teachings and returns time and time again as one gains experience of life. It makes Christianity look primitive to me.

That is not to say there have not been unpleasant and violent Buddhists but their actions cannot be justified by their religion. Whereas many, many acts of brutality have been excused (and often caused) by Christian doctrinal interpretation. The persecution of the Jews to name but one.

Your point about early Christian intellectuals challenging orthodox interpretations is a little disingenuous, if I might say so. The exceptions do not make the rule. Throughout the bulk of its existence almost all Christian denominations have demanded complete obedience to its doctrines and interpretations thereof. Punishments for failure to comply have usually been severe. I am not here referring to literalism but to control of populations through religion.

Of course, some of the privileged elite (those who could read and were conversant with Latin) were necessarily the intellectual few and some of those began thinking for themselves and coming to conclusions other than those propounded by the establishment. One or two were even brave enough to openly challenge the prevailing orthodoxy and, if they received sufficient support amongst their peers a new orthodoxy was created. Some went so far as to found new denominations if their convictions were sufficiently strong and the establishment unbending.

But the punishment for failure was high: excommunication; ostracism; career termination; torture; death.

By the way, I am not saying that this dogmatic approach to religious belief served no purpose – it helped create a social cohesiveness at a time of great upheaval. It also provided a spiritual and scholastic haven in a stormy sea. If it had no social function it would not have survived. But that is very different from trying to prove the validity of the doctrines upon which it depends.

I think that Christianity is in a bind just now. The dilemma it finds itself in is that between using its holy scriptures as a moral guide to the modern world, and adhering to the traditional position of justifying its beliefs by asserting the historical accuracy and truth of its doctrines. The former is more akin to the Buddhist position and is, to my mind, far more grown up.

This is why there is a growing gulf between, let’s say, the liberal Anglican position and that of the fundamentalist or literalist denominations. It is also why I cannot see a future for one united Anglican communion.

Islam, of course, has no such problem. The Koran is the perfect word of God and anybody who says otherwise is severely punished.

I see that this is a bit more than a quick response – apologies.

Boltonian

“The Bible, according to most denominations, is one divinely inspired book, not a collection of multi-authored documents written long after the events portrayed. In this case doctrinal consistency and purity is of first importance and not a ‘Nice to have.’”
There’s the rub. You are of course right to point out that nearly all denominations believe that the Bible is divinely inspired but there is little consensus about what that might mean. Even radical biblical scholars such as Rudolf Bultmann would have claimed that in some sense the Bible was the Word of God despite being very far removed from a literal reading of it and certainly acknowledging that many of the books were written long after the events portrayed by a collection of authors.
Putting words into the mouth of Jesus, imagining what he was thinking at a particular time when he was clearly on his own – for example in the Garden of Gethsemane anticipating how he would have responded to issues of his day (Jesus’ teaching on divorce in Matthew’s gospel) none of these practices would have been thought of as dishonest by the faith communities at the time when the gospels were written only when enlightenment thinking arrived on the scene did a new form of historicism really begin to take root and truth began to be seen ,in these contexts at least, as synonymous with historical accuracy.

I agrre with your points regarding Christianity’s lamentable record with regards to dissent and toleration.

Gordy:

Thanks.

This really is a quickie.

The matter of interpretation really causes a major problem. Who does the interpreting (if we are not to take the Bible literally) and on what authority?

Absolutely!
Hence the Protestant Reformation happening and the rise of a myriad of denominations in Europe shortly after the invention of printing reaches Europe and the publication of Erasmus’ Greek New Testament of 1514. And you hit the nail precisely on the head – the question of interpretation so quickly becomes an issue of authority.

Boltonian – thanks for your thoughts. Here are some scattered thoughts…

I certainly didn’t mean to suggest that the question of biblical inconsistencies is unimportant (a *mere* spilling of ink). I meant that I don’t think that the polemical contexts in which this question is rammed home or last-standed adequately consider what the hell is or should be the crux of debate. I must say that this may well stem – ultimately – from certain ways of reading and understanding scipture: that is, the fault may lie with certain christians.

This is not to say that the whole question (or spectrum of questions) is effectively because of certain forms of “literalist” or “fundamentalist” Christianity. But, for instance, it’s not completely clear to me why that famous sermon being on the mount in Matthew and being on a plain in Luke is really of so much consequence, as if to point this out is a crushing blow for Christian theism (or defending it is a vital defence). I can imagine – and indeed have come across – people pointing this out with relish (as if it were a profoundly unsettling point) and others defending it (not always uninterestingly) as if it were of such profound consequence. I can’t see how it is in the ways implied, which is not to say it’s uninteresting. I should add that I wouldn’t say this of all the things which some might consider to come under the category, “biblical inconsistencies”.

You mention that this question is the basis of a “fundamental objection to the whole doctrinal edifice upon which Christianity stands”. I think I can understand – and perhaps sympathise – with this, but I need to clarify. Do correct me, but I think you mean that the grounds for doctrine are fatally flawed because, for example, they are not in holy writ? (”Where does it speak about Trinitarian theology or whatever in the gospel according to Matthew?” etc). I’ll think about this more, though I should add that this sort of approach – and assumption – about how things may be grounded is not actually one with which I am overly familiar. Certainly, it is far more characteristic of the modern (in the way historians periodise) than with the early medieval or late antique, with which I am more familiar in some senses. This is not to say that a different approach – which has notions of tradition (and these notions are not those simple, brutish beasts which enlightened philosophes thought they slew) – is anything other than unproblematic. But it is profoundly different. And such traditions understand reading in ways which are – and I don’t mean to be slippery here – really rather more complicated than is often supposed. For instance, reading scripture also means listening to the “Word” liturgically (among other ways). It is inseparable – on some accounts – from praxis. The words and the “Word” are both theologically vital and yet, nonetheless, can be literally garbled and mumbled.

In terms of how most denominations regard the bible (i.e. a completely – in all ways – unitary work). On a point of pedantry, I’m sure that even the most hardened preacher refers to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. But I get what you mean. Perhaps so, though I am not so au fait with these burgeoning denominations and am more familiar with catholic and orthodox thought and practice.

As you point out – and I don’t disagree – “doctrinal consistency and purity” are of the utmost importance to ecclesial communities.

Precisely what this entails at a more conceptual level is not as clear as creeds (and even those who have vociferously argued for them) make out. Consider a creed: it is liturgically repeated each sunday within certain rites. It is spoken communally – “We believe…etc”.

The ostensible starkness of a creed (there’s a fat volume of creeds from councils and canons in the first millenium in the British Library, if you’re ever there: incidentally, there are fascinating consonances and contexts underlying them) which many find repellent is slightly offset when one thinks about this liturgical context, for example. (I’ll ignore, for now, the fact that many people who are reciting a creed might do so sleepily or mechanically or thinking about the football or whatever). To be sure, it’s an affirmation. But it’s also aspirational. And it’s a spur to thought and to practice too. It’s not settled by positivist fiat. There’s a rich tradition of trying to come to terms with this creed by “reasoning”. Whether or not this is succesful is another matter, though note one thing: I write “reasoning” because reason is sometimes – perhaps often – considered to take its paradigm from a certain conception of scientific method. I don’t find this conflation terribly illuminating and, indeed, would argue it’s actually rather constricted. That is not to suggest that this settles the issue. Far from it.

I don’t deny your contrast with Theraveda Buddhism in some ways: certainly, what you imply about Christianity certainly describes many manifestations and occurrences. But, at the same time, it’s interesting that your description of tradition in Theraveda Buddhism is not diametrically opposite to other ways in which things have worked out among Christians.

How does this relate to acts of brutality? Certainly, the fact that there have been (many) acts of brutality by Christians and Buddhists acting self-consciously as Christians and Buddhists is undeniable. You note a separation between the two in terms of justification: presumably, however, the protagonists – if they were acting self-consciously as Christians or Buddhists – did think these actions were justified by their religion. (Presumably the brutal acts perpetrated by French revolutionaries were also thought to be justified by concerns for liberty and – a particularly ‘Enlightenment notion of – reason). Of course, there are conflicts here: for instance, Charlemagne’s forcible conversion of the Saxons – and mass-murder of some Saxon prisoners – was met with strong criticism from some of the most influential figures of the day, most notably Alcuin. I think it’s disingenuous here to contrast ’state’ and ‘church’ responses: there are (or were) intermingled and Charlemagne was self-consciously Christian ruler. At the same time, might it not be possible for a christian to say, well, Alcuin was right and Charlemagne was wrong (at the risk of an anodyne gloss over the forcible conversion)?

One other point worth considering is precisely how this relates to ‘religion’ (or a ’system of thought’ ) and what implications it might hold for considering that ’system of thought’ in other contexts. I raise one contrasting example: in the late 19th and early 20th century, embryonic evolutionary ideas gave impetus to (but were not the sole foundation for) eugenicist movements (which were replete, incidentally, with self-identified freethinkers). Yet, I certainly don’t think that this was superficial: read the relevant passages in the Descent of Man. At the same time, I hardly think it means that evolution (or Darwin) is wholly vitiated because of this.

Onto the bit in your post which upset me! You wrote, “Your point about early Christian intellectuals challenging orthodox interpretations is a little disingenuous, if I might say so. The exceptions do not make the rule. Throughout the bulk of its existence almost all Christian denominations have demanded complete obedience to its doctrines and interpretations thereof.”

Do you mean my mention of Gregory and Augustine etc on reading scripture? (I think not: but, briefly, these were the two most influential figures on early medieval churchmen).

I think you mean in relation to what I said about ‘orthodoxy’ in general. I wasn’t actually suggesting that there have been people who have “challenged” orthodoxy. I wouldn’t agree in putting things quite like this: orthodoxy is not as settled or ‘establishment’ in my view. This may seem absurd, so I’ll try to explain what I mean.

I don’t mean to mitigate the (founded) idea that religion can be a mode of social control. It certainly was and is. (That this is inherently and always negative is another question). But it’s worth bearing in mind, for instance, Foucault on the birth of the prison system. Modes of social control are not simply the stuff of hellfire sermons or, at worst, threats of torture. I’m fascinated by Marxian and po-mo thinkers who look at the modes of social control in modernity to which – if they’re right – we are somewhat blinded to. Moreover, the question of the precise horror of these modes of social control has the added problem of the anti-ecclesial polemical fireworks which have dominated grand narratives since the 17th century. This is not to deny, for instance, maltreatment of Jews. But it is to suggest that our interpretative frameworks are profoundly affected by – to my mind, dodgy – anti-ecclesial traditions.

What I meant about orthodoxy was slightly different: I certainly take it that it cannot be reduced to *just* a mode of social control. At the conceptual level, it is not settled and ‘establishment’, blindly followed until some valiant freethinkers start thinking for themselves. This model of the narrative of intellectual history fails to consider how rationality is constituted by traditions: we think within traditions, with the vital addition that traditions are not static but organic and embodying continuities of conflict. The notion of freethinkers, especially from the 19th century, has its own history.

I mean this, to reiterate, at the conceptual level. Sociologically, things are more muddy. Torture, death and so on – while we must be careful not to turn these into the general background picture – could certainly be part of things. (This was not wholly consensual and the historian’s task of understanding – not exculpating – differing notions of punishment, the body, pain, just deserts and so on must not be set aside).

There’s one more aspect to your presentation with which I would disagree. I think your overall picture – and it is a historical model for religion and society (and I’m not criticising you for being general) is that it is wholly ‘top-down’. The clergy or a privileged elite (cardinals?) impose upon society. There are some elements of truth to this. But bear in mind two things. Firstly, insofar as we speak of modes of social control, the clergy were hardly exempt. Take confession and the literature that spawned over it in the later medieval period.The most rigorous treatment pertained to the very (ecclesiastical) class from which the authors of these texts were drawn. As a historian of this subject has put it, a medieval cleric might individually have been a hypocrite, but corporately, the clergy were not.

Secondly, this ‘top-down’ model is far from the whole picture. All sorts of things are far more ‘grass-root’. This pertains to all forms of things: devotions, social aid (suffused with a self-consciously Christian praxis), anti-Jewish pogroms and so on. I have a big problem with the presentation of the history of religion (or of Christianity) as a top-down imposition. It just doesn’t ring true: the very process of christianisation (Peter Brown once described late antique Christianity – in constrast to the erudite paganism of, say, the Emperor Julian – as “middlebrow”) was a slow, negotiated affair. Even where such things as Charlemagne’s forcible conversion took place, this negotiation – the real business – took generations (and, note, in the 9th century it would be – at the theoretic level – be led by monks of Saxon origin).

One final point, which might best be illustrated by referring to a book. A medievalist, Alexander Murray, has written a fascinating two volume study of suicide in the middle ages. He wanted to explore how the prohibition of suicide developed and how it might best be explained. He came to the conclusion that, while there was a ‘theology of suicide’, the real roots were sociological. It’s worth bearing this in mind when we think about torture, or ostracism, or the category ‘apostate’ and so on. I’m not saying all these things in all their manifestations are best considered sociologically. But there is this constant tension: ostracism is a social strategy of distinction which gives definition to group identities. It is hardly the preserve of religious groups. (At a smaller level, I can remember the ostracism meted out – rightly or wrongly – to a quite serious christian on my course in my undergrad days).

This is all scattered and half-baked, but look forward to more discussion. I am re-realising the virtue and appeal of this little haven: whatever we disagree on, I am sure that discussion can be instructive. PErhaps we should concentrate on one thing at a time?

ChooChoo:

Firstly, let me apologise for upsetting you. This was certainly not my intention.

Let me take the last point first. Of course I was being general and I did not mean to imply a simplistic social model without nuance or complexity. But generalisations have their uses.

I was trying to say that Christian orthodoxy (and I will come to definitions later) is no different from social or political orthodoxy – I completely agree with your point, using Charlemagne as an example, of the homogeneous nature of state and church.

Human nature comprises an uneasy mix of conservatism and innovation. We are all, to some degree, a compound of these temperaments. Sometimes the one prevails and then, occasionally, there is a burst of change, usually when the old order has lost its credibility. But subtle change is occurring all the time but only becomes manifest from time to time. And this has served us well as a species so far. And, let us not forget, that the lowest social orders are threated the most by change and they are often the most conservative. Orthodoxy then is the status quo.

Why should this be the case? Well, not to put too fine a point on it, human endeavour is motivated by the getting and keeping of power. You might say that this is simplistic and so it is but nonetheless it is essentially true at an individual level. I could expound on this at length but I will spare you that and ask you to concentrate on how you set about achieving your goals in life. We can return to this if I am not making myself clear.

If I am right then control is of first importance and one cannot control others without a certain self-discipline. This is manifest in things like formulating, agreeing and then obeying a set of rules. Iconoclasts are dangerous and to be expelled or neutralised wherever they might be found.

How the early church came to establish its own set of rules and programme of control is more your subject than mine but the conversion of Constantine and the subsequent Council of Nicaea was probably a big step in that direction.

I will keep to the general if I may. Once a set of beliefs had been established any variation would be seen as a threat to the getting and keeping of power. I completely accept the point that there were debates and disagreements as to what doctrines should be included and what to reject. There were immense power struggles inside the early church but eventually one (broad) view prevailed and became the orthodoxy. This pattern is common to all social institutions.

The next point I would like to make is that these power grabs are not based on nothing. I have no doubt whatsoever that those who believed what they believed did so sincerely and genuinely wanted to save their fellow men from error. ‘This is for your own good.’ ‘ The ends justify the means.’ All these slogans that have cried oppression down the ages were formulated, at least initially, for the best of reasons – motivated by the desire to do good.

One of the reasons why Christianity (and Islam) have lasted longer than some controlling political systems, such as Marxism is that jam tomorrow is an individual promise, rather than a collective feeling of doing good for others. We are selfish creatures and if somebody convinces me that if I do X I will have a wonderful and everlasting hereafter as opposed to doing Y for the good of my fellow men, I will opt for the former, if they are both equally unpleasant.

Also, the orthodoxy is always in a state of flux but the retention of power is a strong motivation to keep in line. I recently corresponded with a politician whom I admire and asked him how he could, in all conscience, remain a member of a party with which he was clearly out of sympathy. His response was that he felt he could do more good on the inside than he ever could alone from outside the party. He might well be right but this is how the orthodoxy prevails.

A key area that those with vested interests in the status quo must control is the flow of information. This is why doctrinal interpretation was for so long the preserve of the few. Roman Catholicism still endows its leader with these mystical and unique powers of communing directly with God in the guise of Papal infallibility.

I hope that I have not given the impression, by the way, that I think that Orthodox = Bad. How could I when one of my great political influences is Burke, for whom tradition was paramount?

Back to the Bible. The inconsistencies therein are to a large extent dependent on degree. You choose a minor point concerning the the Sermon on the Mount and the Sermon on the Plain. This, I agree, makes no material difference to the case. But I would argue that, to most Christians, the Bible (the whole of it) is inspired by God. And God is perfect, so why would He allow glaring and irreconcilable consistencies and downright contradictions to occur? Surely He has some control over His own message. He is, after all, omnipotent.

This brings me back to a point in the original article. We cannot know God’s purpose because we are limited by the size of our brains. Why bring God into it? It works just as well if one says we cannot understand the universe etc etc. Occam’s razor suggests that God is superfluous here. Also, Genesis is more likely to be the amalgamation of two creation myths than one, according to current scholarship, which is why it seems to read oddly – the join shows. See earlier articles in the History section by Elephantschild and myself on this.

Can you answer me a couple of questions (these and many others went unanswered when I was a young lad and so led to my losing what little faith I ever had):

If Jesus is both the Messiah and the Son of God how can you reconcile the paternity conundrum? The Messiah must be descended from David through the paternal line and be born in his city (Bethlehem), according to Isaiah. Matthew has the couple scurrying off to Bethlehem from Nazareth on some risible census pretext so that Jesus can be born there and fulfill the prophecy. But that would mean Joseph, not God, is His father. Mmmm.

Secondly, the author, above, says that the concept of the Trinity is beyond our understanding because of our limited intellectual capacity. It is certainly beyond mine. There is one (oblique) reference to such a concept in the Gospels, which has been shown to be a later editorial insertion (Please refer to the Ehrman NT textual analysis in the same article in the History section referred to earlier for further details). So, where is the justification and where did it come from? A needless doctrinal complication, unless of course it was a political compromise.

Your implication of equivalence of oppression between Therevada Buddhism and Christianity does not, in my view, stand up. To put it very simply, a Buddhist who uses to coercion to propagate his religious views is carrying out an act in direct contravention of Buddhist teaching; a Christian who forcibly converts people is doing them a favour and, therefore, doing the right thing by his faith. Force is anathema to Buddhists but to Christians it is built into the system. You might argue that Christianity is changing in this regard but this is thanks to the establishment Open Society (which is another discussion) and not for internal reasons. Evangelism and conversion are not an intrinsic aspect of Buddhism as they are with Christianity.

Lastly, at least for this round, you cite some examples of where the church (or rather some churches) has been responsible for helping to develop the Open Society in some areas. This is partly as a result of the fragmented nature of Christendom and the arising of other, competing, social forces. I have never denied it and it for this reason, and others, I take issue with Grayling’s one-eyed stance. I also do not, unlike him, assert that Christianity has been a force for ill. I have no idea whether this is so or not, and neither has he.

“Imagine a future generation which no longer realised that Dad’s Army or Yes, Minister are sitcoms, and took the first as a documentary on the Home Guard, and the second as the video-records of meetings in the conclaves of Whitehall; or did not realise that Animal Farm is an allegorical novel”

I really like the way that this point is put across.
Sometimes when you want to teach someone something it is better to show them what will happen when you don’t make the right choice (was anyone else shown a picture of a blackened smoker’s lung at school?). Sometimes it is better to show them what rewards making the right choice will bring you.
It seems to me that there are many examples of both styles of teaching in the Bible.

Contradictions can also be illuminating. Aren’t the zen koans examples of this?

I heard a good Rumi one the other day:
Failure is the key to the kingdom within.

Boltonian – sorry, have been doing extra hours in shop and a bit under the weather this week. Haven’t yet had time to do justice to your (v interesting) post. I was only joking about being upset…

ChooChoo:

Hope you are feeling better.

All:

I have just caught the last 20 minutes of a TV programme presented by Peter Owen Jones on the the lost Gospels and why they were excluded from the final NT canon.

Heterodoxy was eradicated by the early church, so far as it was possible, and for many reasons but the need for doctrinal unity and painting Jesus as a martyr were two of them, apparently.

I might try to catch up with the rest of the programme at some point.

Boltonian

Point taken about generalisations.

So back to orthodoxy – you suggest that Christian orthodoxy is no different from social or political orthodoxy; and of Charlemagne as an example of the homogeneous nature of church and state.

On this second point, I didn’t quite mean to imply that. I certainly think it would be a weak argument, if someone were to raise the example of Charlemagne, to say ‘that’s the state’: there were not separate spheres in the way this can be imagined today. Yet, at the same time, I wouldn’t quite want to say that Charlemagne shows that (in the 8th/9th century) church and state were homogeneous.

The complex disputes from c.855-869 over the divorce case of Lothar II form a good example. Briefly, in 855, Lothar became king of the middle Frankish kingdom (there were three by this stage), succeeding his father (Lothar I). He married a noblewoman, Theutberga (though earlier he had had some sort of union with a woman called Waldrada who bore him a son). By 857, the (presumably, political) reasons for this marriage had dissipated, and he – with some of his bishops (they were far from unanimous) – brought charges of sodomitical incest against her. From here, the dispute snowballed: it involved Charles the Bald (who ruled the kingdom to the West) and his bishops, not least one Hincmar of Rheims (who wrote a lengthy treatise on the case); Louis the German (who ruled the kingdom to the East); and, eventually (and following an appeal by Lothar II) the papacy under two different popes.

What is interesting is that the aims and anxieties of the different protagonists were rather varied. (Moreover, a simply ‘political’ reading of this whole maelstrom is – some important historians have argued – too restricted). For Hincmar and (the pope) Nicholas I, there were serious points about marriage in all of this: and yet, they both disagreed on questions of ecclesiology. Neither Charles the Bald nor Louis the German (both of whom had designs on this kingdom) took the same line. And so on. When it comes to church and state, things were messy and intermeshed, rather than homogeneous.

Or, another example, take the penitentials: these were (for now this definition will do) manuals for confessors, which often started with a not unsophisticated theology of penance and then listed tariffs of sins/penances. They originated from 6th century Irish (monastic) communities, but soon spread onto the continent. By the 9th century, they were widely disseminated. (One caveat: it’s not so clear how likely it was that your average priest would have had one).

Two interesting things about them: first, the harshest penances were for clerical sins, not lay ones; second, they shared some, even many, concerns with ’secular’ law. For instance, ‘maleficium’ (a latin term it is impossible to translate without context: depending on this, ‘magic’, ‘poison’ etc) had been a concern even among Roman lawgivers and continued to be a concern in the law codes of barbarian successor states (not least the Salic law which was reiterated under Charlemagne). Yet, there was a crucial difference about the penitentials, which is not to deny that they were a mode of social discipline: they were concerned with interior dispositions, with what we would call “sin” rather than with “crime”.

Thus, my point is that the church/state interaction at this time was complicated and messy, but (and despite the Carolingian renewal) we still are not talking about a theocracy here. (Of course, what is meant by ‘church’ and, more starkly, ’state’ is in tension with 9th century material to some extent).

On orthodoxy – I am sympathetic to your presentation of ‘orthodoxy’ as ’status quo’. (We do, however, have a tension here: orthodoxy is used in v general terms – e.g. an ‘orthodoxy’ of anti-americanism among contemporary comedians – or more specifically, say, ‘orthodoxy’ on corporeality in debates on marriage, to say nothing of ‘orthodoxy’ in relation to ecclesiastical councils).

“Once a set of beliefs had been established any variation would be seen as a threat to the getting and keeping of power. I completely accept the point that there were debates and disagreements as to what doctrines should be included and what to reject. There were immense power struggles inside the early church but eventually one (broad) view prevailed and became the orthodoxy. This pattern is common to all social institutions.”

I agree with you on this commonality in social institutions. (In modern times, there are particular elements of this which, precisely in order to be efficacious, must be silent. Indeed, the modern world is more characterised by impersonal power rather than personal power – centred on a king or whoever. Whether this – in every way – is an advance is not always clear to me. By which I certainly don’t mean I’m a monarchist).

The bit I find fascinating is “when a belief had been established”. Perhaps you want to say this too, but I just want to add that this establishment is a murky process. It’s no coincidence that the great church councils of the 4th and 5th centuries were, in a sense, ‘apophatic orthodoxy’: i.e., just as apophatic theology goes about thinking about God negatively (what God is not), likewise with these councils. When we read their proceedings, it all looks a bit arbitrary. But, it makes much more sense when we excavate deeper disputes. What was debated at Nicaea (among other things – and there were many other things – the relation between the son and the father) was a long-standing tension. The purported resolution was not just about power (by which I understand something along the lines of instrumental rationality: i.e. how can I bring x about) but were conceptual (and, thus, sincere). But of course, Nicaea did not solve the problem once and for all.

In fact, I’m not sure we disagree so much on these things: we both recognise power and conceptual elements. (Curiously, even the ‘cuddly’ things people back up nowadays rely on ‘orthodoxies’ – e.g. certain conceptions of human rights – in this sense: of course, another question is whether they’ve got something going for them or not).

Incidentally, two points of disagreement. I don’t think papal infallibility is quite premised on a notion of direct communicability between God and the person of the pope. The understanding is more ecclesiological than that. And it’s complicated, undoubtedly, by questions of power. (It *only* makes sense – and sorry to those armchair atheists who might love to get angry about it – in the context of 19th century intra-catholic disputes. Incidentally, Newman, from what I understand, thought the doctrine was right, but had problems about declaring it).

Second, as you know, I find most (generalised) understandings of religious praxis as premised most fundamentally upon a dash for heaven to be unpersuasive. One problem I have with your presentation is that you suggest the “jam tomorrow” (i.e. salvation) is an individual promise. This could really only be written post-reformation: a v good (sideways) affirmation of this is de Lubac’s Catholicism and the Common Destiny of Mankind, which is heavy on patristics. In early, late antique and early medieval ecclesial communities, the understanding of salvation was strikingly not individualistic. (More generally, there are some who deny we can even speak of the ‘individual’ in the early medieval period, until the later medieval period). All the various micro-christendoms which emerged were distinctly communitarian in their thinking and praxis (I would argue this was true – in a roundabout way – even in the case of the eremitic holy men and women of the late antique East).

Moreover, there is a danger here in referring to this in relation to orthodoxy. Let’s be clear: we’ve all read that famous hellfire sermon in chapter 3 of POrtrait of the Artist. The possibilities – and actual occurrences here – are not being denied. But their pervasion and precise function and intent is not clear. Nor is it clear that this was the thing most central to a) the actions of Christian men and woman (or, to the reasons they could give themselves for action) and b) to the ’success’ of Christian or Islamic political systems.

Incidentally, take Parsi communities in India. They have been ’succesful’ at both integrating without diluting into Indian society and, say, financially. Etc etc. Theoretically, there is a Zoroastrian eschatology on which they could draw, which has a heaven, hell and so on. What is striking is how little (if ever) it is drawn upon. It doesn’t, to my mind, explain individual actions or communal dynamics. And I imagine the same is true for christianities all over the place.

Will have to come back to bible another time!

Sorry, I must sound like such a moron when I wrote “we’ve all read…”. To counter this ponceodoxy and repeat, as I said once before, I’ve never read an Austen novel (from cover to cover).

ChooChoo:

Obviously I cannot, nor would I wish to, cross swords with you in your specialist area. It is a long age since I was reading the history of the early Middle Ages.

My thinking about homogeneity (probably the wrong word) was an attempt to differentiate the religious mind of rulers pre and post reformation. That there was much more of a coincidence of motive, action and thought from that which we experience today.

I did not mean to imply that Charlemagne ruled over a theocracy nor that tension was not in evidence – the Guelph/Ghibelline wars during 13th century Italy gives that the lie. Just that the King identified himself with his theology – obviously if it became an obstacle to his more temporal objectives there were problems.

Your collective/individual argument depends on what we mean by individual. I mean those that had any power or influence at all in the formulation, propagation and defence of a particular theology. Nowadays we all have that power – we are free to choose or reject any set of beliefs as we wish. And, without descending into cynicism, wishful thinking is a very powerful motivator and the most attractive beliefs would have held the most sway. People believe what they wish to believe until there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary (not always easy to supply).

Of course the position is highly complex and there would have been lots of compromises, deals, power-politics, blackmailing and threats as well as reasoned arguments. I do not doubt, as I said previously, that the winners were sincere in their beliefs, although I am sure that they would have been aware that some things would have been difficult to defend on the grounds of evidence.

The competing factions would have tried to enlist the most numerous and powerful people in their support and attractiveness would have been one of their weapons. Not so very different from the way Islamic jihadists recruit their foot soldiers today.

This is one reason why Therevada Buddhism did not sweep the board in India. It advocates a hard road to enlightenment (eradicating all desire) and the end result (Nirvana) is not the Christian heaven, nor much like it either. It also explains the success of Mahayana in China.

I do not see how one can eliminate the individual because it is individuals who have written the theology, sought approbation, created alliances, formed associations and so on. I agree that pre-reformation worship was very much different from that which followed – a far greater emphasis on ritual and collective activities but that is the norm in a largely illiterate age. I would argue that the church at that time sought to keep things that way. Fear of the mob has always been a preoccupation of the rulers.

There is no essential difference between the evolution of the church and other social and political systems. Marx enlisted scientific argument and reasoning for his dialectical materialism. It is not simply a ruthless grab for power that determines success but rather a blend of might and argument. A wholly repressive regime that achieves nothing for its subjects beyond feeding the maw of its overlord does not tend to last long.

People crave those things necessary for survival and beyond that hope, security, prosperity, and happiness. These things for themselves, their families, their tribe etc. Religion, at least superficially, is better at offering these things over the long term.

Unfortunately, the stakes are quite high because most religious systems depend for their long-term credibility on being true. Now, which version of Christianity is the truth (as many of the 22,000 Christian denominations conflict)? More than this which of the major religions is true, many of which are in conflict with one another? The only possible way all these can be accommodated is through such a diluting of beliefs as to become almost meaningless.

The truth is not evident – if not, why not?

Just a point about your example about clerical lapses being punished more harshly than lay misdemeanors. This is just as true in other social and political contexts – those in a position to do the most damage to the status quo are the ones attracting the highest rewards for conformity and the harshest punishment for transgression. Power and responsibility must be in long-term balance.

Yes, I have read ‘Portrait’ – I was a big fan of Joyce in my twenties. I will immediately dig out my copy and read the passage you refer to.

I feel I must first apologise, I have been away far too long and secondly I must confess I feel somewhat awed by the level of erudition which has greeted me on passing by again. If I make a complete fool of myself in a few near random, rambling musings, please forgive me.

A couple of points do strike me reading the posts above. Wrt the Bible being ‘divinely inspired’: it’s a phrase which trips off the keyboard very easily but what is actually meant by that? To the literalists it appears to mean in essence ‘divinely dictated’. Speaking personally, and I still consider myself a Christian in saying this, that seems daft to me. To expect a literary work to be unmodified from the first century is a real stretch. ‘Inspired’ I can accept, ‘dictated’ I cannot. But therein lies the issue as has been alluded to before, if not divinely dictated, then who is to do the interpretation?

OK, now as some may know as a Quaker adherent I’d suggest that it’s a complex web almost, the interpretation, and the faith which permits that interpretation, comes from God in silent listening but where the ‘orthodoxy’ provides, if you like to put it this way, a form of theological peer review which keeps you on the straight and narow. That doesn’t mean that you invariably align with the orthodoxy, just that it provides a mechanism which requires careful testing before departure, not nearly the free and easy which it might initially appear to be. But the ‘authority’ comes ultimately from God.

I’m also a little concerned about some of the thoughts about power and orthodoxy. I’d agree that all too easily orthodoxy is used by power structures to reinforce themselves, but argue that iffi the ‘orthodoxy’ is one which, almost paradoxically, rejects such use of orthodoxy for power it is possible to avoid that trap, a self-denying orthodoxy if you like, which is to me one of the most ‘attractive’ aspects of my peculiar faith, the constant warning NOT to use orthodoxy in that way (even if it’s a reminder sometimes forgotten).

Boltonian, you ask how can one eliminate the individual since it is the individual which writes the theology? Is the answer not, by writing a theology which is both highly individual yet suspicious of the individual, deliberately eschewing the power structures which allow any compulsion? Almost the faith equivalent of the checks and balances one writes into constitutions if you like.

Again, I seem to see a false dichotomy (that’s not the right word, my apologies, but I don’t think ‘multichotomy’ is a word at all!) when you ask which of the 22,000 Christian denominations is correct? To phrase the question in that way seems to risk assuming that they are mutually exclusive when they are more partially common, partially exclusive.

I fear I’m not putting this well, in my head I see a Venn diagram of distinct circles versus a Venn diagram of overlapping circles if that means anything to people here. To me, the ‘truth’ is likely to be found in the overlap. To say that the Quaker ‘God’ is wholly distinct from, say, the [insert name of chosen denomination here] ‘God’ is a mistake, the perceptions might be different but it is in the overlap where we agree that the truth is most likely to be found.

I admit, though, that it sounds like an easy sort of, “where we agree it’s God, where we disagree it’s us” argument. I don’t agree that this leads to a dilution of belief however, if anything more a distillation of belief, if that makes any sense. Why is the truth not evident? Because we try to cling to our own human version of our perception too tightly rather than being prepared to accept that we don’t have exclusive rights to God on earth and may be able to learn much from others.

Forgive me if I make myself obscure, it’s late! There are a few more thoughts I’d like to consider, but I only really came here to try to find the get-together details and was surprised to be sucked into reading an article by a Jesuit! (Thank you Gordy, I blame you Boltonian! LOL) I need to do some more thinking.

Peitha:

Great to have you back posting. I am very happy to take the blame for that :-) .

Lots of things here to think about. I will need to re-read, get my own scattered thoughts in some sort of order and then try to respond.

Peitha:

I will try to address each of the points you raise so far as I am able but in no particualr order.

Firstly, I cannot comment with any knowledge about Quakerism as a creed. All I know is that it is pacifist and non-doctrinaire. This (and Unitarianism) is really not the type of belief system I am taking about, which is more akin to some eastern religions than mainstream Christianity. There have always been those who have wished or sought to opt out of the struggle for power – many of the monastic orders were founded thus.

Almost all other Christian churches that I know of, large and small, are identified through their system of beliefs. One cannot be a Roman Catholic unless one accepts all of its precepts (not all do in reality, of course), nor a Christadelphian (to take an example from the less numerous end of the spectrum) without accepting that the whole of the Bible is literally the perfect and unimprovable word of God. This latter includes rejecting the concept of the Trinity, for which there is no reference in the Bible.

This leads to some peculiar situations. I caught the second half of a TV programme on Martin Luther King last night, which focused on his religion. His political speeches were littered with references to hearing the word of God, being called by God to do x,y or z etc. But strangely, his most vehement white supremacist opponents also claimed to be doing the will of God when they degraded, lynched, and otherwise persecuted their black neighbours. And most from both sides belonged to the Baptist church, which was almost completely segregated by colour.

The essence of most Christian denominations (as Luther stated) is that one must buy the whole package. Then one must accept the interpretation of those doctrines by the hierarchy. From this follows a whole set of approved (and by implication unacceptable) behaviours.

Thus, to Roman Catholics the Pope is God’s earthly representative and to, say, a Presbyterian he is the anti-christ.

Of course there are overlaps – it would be strange if there weren’t as all Christian denominations supposedly take their inspiration from the Bible. There are overlaps between Buddhism and Christianity too, and between Sikhism and Christianity etc.

This is not the issue for me, however. If all religions were merely expressions of a moral code – a guide as to how we can better live our lives on this earth then there could be some discussion and, perhaps, agreement. But the Abrahamic religions are much more than that – they claim unique access to the (metaphysical) truth and denounce those that believe something different from this.

If one were to take your Venn diagram example of overlapping circles, the degree of overlap would be so small (if one were to be completely inclusive) that it would be reduced to the very lowest of lowest common denominators. Perhaps just to this for Christianity – there is one God and Jesus Christ existed. Exend that to include Islam and Judaism and one loses the Christ (Messiah) element. As for all the other world religions…

I think that saying all 22,000 Christian denominations are more partially common than mutually exclusive is difficult to sustain. Some are closer in doctrine than others, of course, but the reason one is Roman Catholic and not, say, Presbyterian, is because one believes x to be true and not y. I leave aside all the family, social, educational and other influences – that is a whole new discussion. It would be an interesting (and time consuming) exercise to ask each denomination to list its, say, top 20 beliefs (without which one cannot be a Mormon, JW or Roman Catholic etc) and see how many are common to all.

In summary, most Christian churches (with one or two notable exceptions) are doctrinaire and it is these doctrines that give that particular church its legitimacy. It is the method used to control its adherents and, therefore, to gain and exercise power. That power increases its legitimacy and strengthens its control, which is why most mainstream (if I can use that word) denominations have a strong evangelical tradition.

By the way, I am not judging here, merely commenting on what I observe.

I also posted this comment on the Karen Armstrong thread (where it more properly belongs)

Yesterday we touched on the idea that biblical literalism, at least as we see it today, is a post-enlightenment phenomenon and this is very much the position of Armstrong (I have only just started reading the book). I have also taken delivery today of a slim volume charting the history, values and main theses of the Jesus Seminar.

Just flicking through one or two of the essays, I came upon the assertion that serious attempts by scholars to unearth the real Jesus began with the enlightenment. Assuming that Armstrong’s position is correct for the moment, do you think that the two might be linked? In other words the rise of literalism was a reaction to the more scientific approach adopted by some biblical scholars. Thus scholarship began to be seen as a threat to the Christian belief system and a return to a more strict (and coercive) regime was a protective measure developed by some denominations.

Science is not “the gold standard for all truth.” It is only the “gold standard” for physical causation. Philosophy remains the “Judicial Branch” of all acadaemia. All Thought, Rhetoric, and Interpreation (so-called “Truth”) must be judged by the discipline from which all others descend, and the standards of Logic which only it holds. What people like Dawkins fail to recognize is the difference(s) between Logic and “being logical.”

i am intrigued by the serendipity of being able to leave a comment on the same day as the previous
comment when the site has been dormant for so long,,maybe two comments on the same day, plus maybe a small response from boltonian is
enough to start the machine,,

@carlon,,hi,,what prompted you to leave a comment here at the bottom of a 6 month drought

a psi hi @ mr bill,,we will see what happens

Welcome, Carlon and welcome back dib.

Bill hasn’t been around for ages. I am intrigued.

Carlon, I agree. Science cannot be the sole approach for unearthing truth, as you say but it is very good at creating a ratchet or ladder, so that we don’t lose what we have discovered.

In many ways I regret the divergence or schism within philosophy. I feel that both science and what we now know as philosophy have diminished since they were one and science was called ‘Natural philosophy.’

Theoretical science has not really progressed much in the last 50 years and, I would say the same about philosophy. I suppose the Vienna Circle put paid to any coming together but perhaps I am being simplistic.

QED, QCD and the isolation of DNA were that last great leaps forward in science. The only thing since those days (1950s and 1960s) that I can think of is the discovery that the universe is not only expanding but accelerating (early 1990s) but we still do not understand the cause. So, we have theories about the 4% of the universe that we can detect (Quantum theory and General Relativity) but, unfortunately, they are incompatible.

Evolution is a very good theory to describe how life develops but has nothing to say about its origins and cannot address questions such as why life? Or why something rather than nothing etc? Also, I am not convinced by Dawkins’ concept of memes.

Has there been any progress in philosophy since Wittgenstein? Most moderns that I have read, or attempted to read, are either lightweight or charlatans (or both) in comparison.

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