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	<title>Comments on: Analysis &#8211; Thought Experiments</title>
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		<title>By: gordy</title>
		<link>http://boltonian.edublogs.org/2009/06/29/analysis-thought-experiments/comment-page-1/#comment-1205</link>
		<dc:creator>gordy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 09:38:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boltonian.edublogs.org/?p=47#comment-1205</guid>
		<description>E: You should have seen how bitterly the pupils complained about the restraints of the experiment. &quot;Why can&#039;t we stop the train? How do we know it will kill five people? How do we know the man is fat enough?&quot; It points towards the uncertainty we face in the real world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>E: You should have seen how bitterly the pupils complained about the restraints of the experiment. &#8220;Why can&#8217;t we stop the train? How do we know it will kill five people? How do we know the man is fat enough?&#8221; It points towards the uncertainty we face in the real world.</p>
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		<title>By: boltonian</title>
		<link>http://boltonian.edublogs.org/2009/06/29/analysis-thought-experiments/comment-page-1/#comment-1204</link>
		<dc:creator>boltonian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 22:03:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boltonian.edublogs.org/?p=47#comment-1204</guid>
		<description>Gordy: the last observation is very 21st century. We were very fattist (and, in my own case, shortist) in my day. :-)

E: agree completely with your penultimate para - like you, it seems self-evident to me.

The last is more problematical. It seems to be tribal in origin - &#039;I relate to all Greens (intellectuals, lefties, Christians, nationalists etc)&#039;. Also, I suspect a certain amount of posturing here - &#039;I am taking this position (of empathy) because a) it plays well with my immediate tribe; and b) because I think my tribe&#039;s ethical stance suggests that I ought to&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gordy: the last observation is very 21st century. We were very fattist (and, in my own case, shortist) in my day. <img src='http://boltonian.edublogs.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>E: agree completely with your penultimate para &#8211; like you, it seems self-evident to me.</p>
<p>The last is more problematical. It seems to be tribal in origin &#8211; &#8216;I relate to all Greens (intellectuals, lefties, Christians, nationalists etc)&#8217;. Also, I suspect a certain amount of posturing here &#8211; &#8216;I am taking this position (of empathy) because a) it plays well with my immediate tribe; and b) because I think my tribe&#8217;s ethical stance suggests that I ought to&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Elephantschild</title>
		<link>http://boltonian.edublogs.org/2009/06/29/analysis-thought-experiments/comment-page-1/#comment-1203</link>
		<dc:creator>Elephantschild</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 16:16:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boltonian.edublogs.org/?p=47#comment-1203</guid>
		<description>A related topic is currently being discussed on Andrew Brown&#039;s blog on cif (Faith schools, Evolution, Group Selection).  The starting point is the proposition that if altruism originates as a means of promoting survival within and of the group, and evolves further through group selection, the splitting of society into groups should result in an increase of altruism across society as a whole - the catch being, would this necessarily result in eventual increase in inter-group altruism?

In the matter of the thought experiments, my first reaction, faced with these either/or scenarios, would be &#039;yes, but...&#039;.  To take the most trivial example; would I be prepared to ruin a pair of expensive shoes in order to save a drowning child?  My response would be &#039;Yes, but why would I need to?  How long does it take to kick off a pair of shoes?&#039;

The observation concernng the emotional/empathic basis of moral decisions seems obvious to me.  We find it easier to empathise with people we meet or whom we can see, which is presumably why, in war, those fighting on the ground and who see the results of their actions are more likely to be traumatised than those who launch missiles or drop bombs from a great height, even though the actions of the latter may result in a far greater number of deaths and injuries. 

What I find interesting is how many people do in fact seem able to empathise with people with whom they have no direct contact.  Is this a matter of evolution or social conditioning, or both?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A related topic is currently being discussed on Andrew Brown&#8217;s blog on cif (Faith schools, Evolution, Group Selection).  The starting point is the proposition that if altruism originates as a means of promoting survival within and of the group, and evolves further through group selection, the splitting of society into groups should result in an increase of altruism across society as a whole &#8211; the catch being, would this necessarily result in eventual increase in inter-group altruism?</p>
<p>In the matter of the thought experiments, my first reaction, faced with these either/or scenarios, would be &#8216;yes, but&#8230;&#8217;.  To take the most trivial example; would I be prepared to ruin a pair of expensive shoes in order to save a drowning child?  My response would be &#8216;Yes, but why would I need to?  How long does it take to kick off a pair of shoes?&#8217;</p>
<p>The observation concernng the emotional/empathic basis of moral decisions seems obvious to me.  We find it easier to empathise with people we meet or whom we can see, which is presumably why, in war, those fighting on the ground and who see the results of their actions are more likely to be traumatised than those who launch missiles or drop bombs from a great height, even though the actions of the latter may result in a far greater number of deaths and injuries. </p>
<p>What I find interesting is how many people do in fact seem able to empathise with people with whom they have no direct contact.  Is this a matter of evolution or social conditioning, or both?</p>
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		<title>By: gordy</title>
		<link>http://boltonian.edublogs.org/2009/06/29/analysis-thought-experiments/comment-page-1/#comment-1202</link>
		<dc:creator>gordy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 11:41:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boltonian.edublogs.org/?p=47#comment-1202</guid>
		<description>I enjoyed adapting these thought experiments for my Year 7 (that&#039;s first year in old money)classes. Some pupils made some interesting responses to the fat bloke on the footbridge scenario - especially on the reluctance of many to push our rotund friend to his death. One point was that the stout man&#039;s death would be worse because his suffering would be increased by the knowledge that he had been singled out. Another observation was that people did not want to be (seen as?) prejudiced against fat blokes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I enjoyed adapting these thought experiments for my Year 7 (that&#8217;s first year in old money)classes. Some pupils made some interesting responses to the fat bloke on the footbridge scenario &#8211; especially on the reluctance of many to push our rotund friend to his death. One point was that the stout man&#8217;s death would be worse because his suffering would be increased by the knowledge that he had been singled out. Another observation was that people did not want to be (seen as?) prejudiced against fat blokes.</p>
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		<title>By: gordy</title>
		<link>http://boltonian.edublogs.org/2009/06/29/analysis-thought-experiments/comment-page-1/#comment-1201</link>
		<dc:creator>gordy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 14:26:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boltonian.edublogs.org/?p=47#comment-1201</guid>
		<description>Yes, I agree it did assume that there was only one reasonable opinion with regards to euthanasia.
The thought experiment questions are very good at getting people to think but they deal with certainties (one or five people will die) and short term results. In the real world we usually have to make do with uncertainty and are often more interested in long term outcomes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I agree it did assume that there was only one reasonable opinion with regards to euthanasia.<br />
The thought experiment questions are very good at getting people to think but they deal with certainties (one or five people will die) and short term results. In the real world we usually have to make do with uncertainty and are often more interested in long term outcomes.</p>
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		<title>By: boltonian</title>
		<link>http://boltonian.edublogs.org/2009/06/29/analysis-thought-experiments/comment-page-1/#comment-1200</link>
		<dc:creator>boltonian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 12:52:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boltonian.edublogs.org/?p=47#comment-1200</guid>
		<description>Very interesting.

Marc Hauser in his controversial book on moral inheritance, &#039;Moral Minds,&#039; (reviewed here recently) uses many of these examples in an attempt to (unsuccessfully) prove his hypothesis.

That reason is a slave to the passions (emotions) was very much Hume&#039;s position - reason is used primarily as a way of justifying actions already taken or contemplated.

It seems uncontroversial to me that morals developed as an evolutionary tool to allow complex social systems to develop whilst preventing the deliberate harming of those closest to us. Deliberately inflicting harm on someone living in close proximity might have two undesirable consequences: instant retaliation from either him or his immediate circle and reducing the likelihood of receiving help in the future from those in the best position to offer it.

On the other hand people at one remove from us might either be enemies or competitors and so will not exercise the same bonds of mutual dependence nor, in most circumstances, are they able to respond to the attack immediately, allowing a chance to get away with it.  

I was not keen on the motherhood stuff towards the end of the broadcast. It assumed that we all shared a common ethical position on these things, which I am sure is not the case. Who is the &#039;We&#039; agreeing and consenting to proposed the system, I wonder? 

Also, I am not sure that morality is an agreed code, shared across humanity and at all times. Morals shift in time and space - they are essentially tribal and practical. This difference has been the source of conflict forever more -  just now, of course, with the West&#039;s problems with fundamentalist Islam (and vice versa).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting.</p>
<p>Marc Hauser in his controversial book on moral inheritance, &#8216;Moral Minds,&#8217; (reviewed here recently) uses many of these examples in an attempt to (unsuccessfully) prove his hypothesis.</p>
<p>That reason is a slave to the passions (emotions) was very much Hume&#8217;s position &#8211; reason is used primarily as a way of justifying actions already taken or contemplated.</p>
<p>It seems uncontroversial to me that morals developed as an evolutionary tool to allow complex social systems to develop whilst preventing the deliberate harming of those closest to us. Deliberately inflicting harm on someone living in close proximity might have two undesirable consequences: instant retaliation from either him or his immediate circle and reducing the likelihood of receiving help in the future from those in the best position to offer it.</p>
<p>On the other hand people at one remove from us might either be enemies or competitors and so will not exercise the same bonds of mutual dependence nor, in most circumstances, are they able to respond to the attack immediately, allowing a chance to get away with it.  </p>
<p>I was not keen on the motherhood stuff towards the end of the broadcast. It assumed that we all shared a common ethical position on these things, which I am sure is not the case. Who is the &#8216;We&#8217; agreeing and consenting to proposed the system, I wonder? </p>
<p>Also, I am not sure that morality is an agreed code, shared across humanity and at all times. Morals shift in time and space &#8211; they are essentially tribal and practical. This difference has been the source of conflict forever more &#8211;  just now, of course, with the West&#8217;s problems with fundamentalist Islam (and vice versa).</p>
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